Anyone regretted a move to Germany or Switzerland? Please help us decide!!

[sputnik2]

So there we go, 2014 has started and we are still unable to decide. Hope you can help us!

Who we are: 2 adults, 2 children (2.5 and 6 months). Living in a part of London we love, but will have to leave- we are unable to find affordable childcare locally (so I'm a sahm at the moment as my income would only pay nursery/ nanny for one child) and our area is very, very heavily oversubscribed in terms of primary schools and we would be unable to get kids into a decent school.

We both have EU passports and speak fluently 3 other languages other than English, so are able to live and work pretty much anywhere in EU, however for various reasons (proximity and travel connections to families/existing friends, the sector in which my partner works and would find it easy to find a job) we narrowed it down to 2 countries (and areas really- northern part of Germany or Berlin, or Geneva area).

Has any of you relocate recently/ in the last couple of years and could tell us more about your experiences? (Between us we did a number of international moves in the past so we know the rough logistics of it, but they were before we had kids- it was all so easy back then ;))

In particular:
How difficult was finding a place to live in either of the countries (we have a dog), arranging childcare, how is the cost of and applying for schools, how are schools in your area, how do you find the overall cost of living (we heard that Switzerland is now pretty much like London in terms of cost of living/accommodation/childcare/shopping- to compare, a small 3 bed place in our area starts at about £1500 pcm plus bills with what it seems to be no upper limit and a full time nursery place is £1700 pcm and up).

What would you consider as a comfortable family income (after tax) to keep a family of 4 going (we are not into luxury items and expensive holidays etc. but would like to have freedom to to things, i.e. be able to afford a meal out with the kids, leisure activities for kids and gym for grown ups and one budget family holiday per year).

If you moved with one job only (eg partner), how difficult was it for you to find a job (and additional (preferably english speaking) childcare to cover Wednesdays and/ or half-day school?

Was it difficult to make new friends to where you moved? Do you like the towns/villages you moved to?

Have you ever regretted the move? Is there anything you would have done differently a second time round? How did you overall lifestyle changed with the move?

A BIG HUGE thank you to anyone who takes time to read all this and takes time to respond!

I've read it :) But although I am in Germany I am in the wrong part for you - Germany varies beyond any type of meaningful comparison in terms of rents and child care arrangements - in some parts of Germany child care is even free from around age 2! In other parts it is relatively reasonably priced but almost impossible to get a place for a child under 3 unless you applied on a set date up to a year in advance... and not even then. I'm near Munich, which is not on your radar - but rents in Munich are similar to what you quote for your area, while state childcare is cheaper (subsidised or tied to your income) but it is very hard to get a place if you live in the city, especially if you missed the February applications for Sept places. We live in the countryside and I don't think there is anywhere that would take a baby under 12 months around here, and you'd still be very lucky to get a place for a 2.5 year old - easier once they turn 3.

For rental accommodation in Germany you can always look on here www.immobilienscout24.de/Suche/S-21T/Wohnung-Miete/Berlin/Berlin/Mitte-Mitte/4,00-?enteredFrom=result_list - Berlin also looks similar - €1500 and up, the sky is your limit, for a 3 bed (you are searching for a 4 room place, as in GErmany it isn't the bedrooms that are counted, but the rooms in total, excluding kitchen and bathroom/s).

Maybe post more specifically about areas of Germany regarding child care, as each state is so utterly different for childcare/ early childhood education for those under compulsory school age.

Hi,

Important to note on Switzerland - you can't move here without one of you securing a job first, you'd need a contract before you can get a B Permit.

Tax is very low here, depending on canton it can vary from around 8%-16% I think. Cost of living is high. Think £20 for a good chicken, £10 for a McDonalds v the UK. You can shop cheaply in France though.

Property in Geneva is limited. Property everywhere is limited.

Try looking on www.comparis.ch for an idea of prices and areas.

It will also give you a guide on tax you'd pay if you put a salary into the tax calculator. Sometimes a low tax canton is offset by expensive property IYSWIM. Zürich is an example of this. You also pay into 3 pillars, for sickness, unemployment and pension, this comes out at source for foreigners.

It's worth looking on Comparis for an idea of healthcare, personal liabilityinsurance etc. Switzerland is the most over insured Country in Europe, but you can't leave yourself exposed. Bear in mind with healthcare you have a franchise and percentage to pay before insurance payment kicks in for adults, so you do need liquid funds to cover this. For GP bills most companies work on a basis that you pay and claim the money back. So two visits to the doctor in a month could set you back 400 Chf, tests not included, which you have to pay directly to your GP and claim back. Again, you'd need funds available just incase.

Healthcare standards and choices are generally amazing though.

Quality of life can be amazing, as long as you are happy to live by the rules. Which you have to study up on! Some apartments have limitations on times you can use washing machines, flush toilets and shower for example. I live in a village where the rules seem to be ignored, it's very relaxed and friendly, and accepting of Auslanders. I live in a house though, so less restrictive.

Culturally Geneva is obviously very French, so I can't comment too much as I live on the other side of the Rösti divide, which is very Germanic!

Salary is a difficult one - depends whether you put your kids in local schools, opt for bilingual or English speaking international. Also depends what a future employer would give as a benefit. Whether you want to live in a house or flat, commute from France or live in Switzerland etc etc!

No regrets BTW!

I lived in Bavaria for 9 years, so not the area you are looking for, but have a few comments:
Finding a job when the children attend Kindergarten full time is doable, but with half day school it can be tricky to find a part time position.

People take their kitchens with them when they move, so you need to factor that cost into renting a property.
I made a lot of good friends though Kindergarten and Mother and Toddler type groups, although if you live in a rural area that may be more difficult.
Budget holidays are not a problem as you can drive all over Europe to keep the cost down. Each Bundesland is on a different holiday schedule so you may find you can get a cheaper deal as kids are already back at school in the place you are visiting e.g end of August in the Netherlands was a great deal.

We lived in the German speaking part of Switzerland (Zug) so, although our taxes were low - 5% IIRC, our housing was ridiculously expensive.
I was unable to get a job and DHs wages as a teacher barely covered our basic outgoings. DD got a free place at his school.
The lifestyle is fantastic - as long as you can afford it. We did get subsidised piano lessons for DD, and AFAIR cheap ski lessons, but that was it. It is eye wateringly expensive to go out for dinner, even pizza or a kebab.
OTOH, you can halve your train and bus travel by buying a special annual ticket thing.
Pros and cons.
For me, if I ever set foot in Switzerland, I'll have made a wrong exit from a motorway. I had a miserable three years. Others I know loved it.

I've lived in Berlin for over 20 years now, DH even longer, DC were born here. So one thing we've not done is a family relocation. However, we have abundant experience of the school system here, and as both DC go to international schools I've seen plenty of other families come and go.

Costs in Berlin are generally much lower than either London or Bavaria (esp. Munich). Rental, food, everything. We're not up to date on rental costs because we have a mortgage. But I would be shocked if you had to spend as much as 1,500 euros for a decent 3-bed terrace house. Possibly more like 1,000 or 1,200. There are obviously fewer houses on the market, as more people live in flats. If you go for a flat, make sure it's one of the gorgeous Altbau properties with huge ceilings. They're lovely to live in if properly renovated. ImmobilienScout24 is OK, but you could also try the small ads section of the local magazine Zitty, which often advertises rentals, or the newspaper Berliner Morgenpost.

Nursery costs are strictly regulated as long as it's a state-subsidised nursery. About 50% of families put their kids in some sort of childcare before age 3, which is very high for Germany. But to do so and be subsidised, you have to prove both parents are working or studying. Once the child is 3 you have a right to at least 5 hours a day subsidised nursery care. Subsidised means it's income dependent - we never paid more than 150 euros per month for 9 hours per day, but I believe the highest contribution for really high earners is around 500 euros. An unsubsidised place would be more like 800 euros.

Would you want an English-German nursery place, or purely German so the DC can learn via immersion?

Once a DC hits 5, or the final year before Year 1, I believe nursery is now essentially completely free (apart from a few euros for lunch costs).

The school system is appalling, but I'm possibly a cynic. There are, however, a number of options for free state international schools which offer bilingual education (some subjects taught in English, others in German). I would totally recommend that, TBH, because the teachers are trained to help your English DC learn German properly - in a German school teachers can often be somewhat narrow-minded about 'foreigners'. There are a few English private schools teaching GCSEs etc, they tend to be between 5,000 and 15,000 euros per year, I recall.

We have known families who've hated it here and who have ultimately gone back to the UK. That's tended to be when a trailing spouse (usually the mother) is effectively forced to follow her husband and has no interest in the local culture. These people tend to have a miserable time of things. If you're both genuinely interested in integrating yourselves and your DC, it can be a brilliant experience. Berlin is an incredibly dynamic place, still the alternative energy from pre-1989 days, extremely tolerant to alternative views and gay lifestyles. It's where Germans from more privileged parts of 'West-Germany' come to shake off their bourgeois roots,. Of course, that now mixes with all the politicians and diplomats in Mitte, so it's a weird but fascinating mix. I would hate to live anywhere else in Germany - I'm just too used to having all this culture on my doorstep. It's VERY different to Geneva in terms of lifestyle, so you really need to decide what kind of vibe you're looking for.

I think you'd be pretty comfortable as a family with a net income of 2,500 euros, but taxes are fairly high so your gross would have to be much higher than that. Child benefit is around 184 euros per child monthly. I honestly don't know what our family income is (not hidden from me or anything - I just throw figures at our tax accountant and he does the rest) but we have enough to do everything you say, give DD2 private music lessons, both DC ride, and if we want to go to the opera or theatre we can easily.

You could check out - cautiously - the website Toytown Germany, and go to the local Berlin site there. It's rather aggressive - even more so than MN at its most viperish -but can contain useful info. There's lots of useful school info on the 'Family Life' section. But hey, when I first arrived there was no Interweb and I just muddled through somehow (admittedly without children).

If you need more info on English-German schools we can PM about it.

I also lived near Zug (Steinhausen) for a while (over 25 years ago) - it was just so dull, would never go back!

OK, have just checked a bit and the rental costs in naice districts are a bit more than I thought, but you can still get something good for 1,300 euros. This, for instance is in a nice quiet area - DD2 has a friend in this street. It's also very close by to one of the English-German schools and quite close to a gorgeous forest called Grünewald. The areas is Zehlendorf, nice and leafy and lots of English-speaking expats live here (but not so many you're tripping over them).

Do people still take their kitchens with them in rented properties in Germany? I know it was the thing to do 10 years ago when we moved out.

I've never quite understood this. Massive hassle and potential for damage.

still doing it when I lived there 10 years ago - utterly bizarre!

You don't do it in Switzerland in rented property anyhow.

In Berlin it's become much less common over recent years. The difference now seems to be between fairly basic unrenovated Altbau properties, which have a low rental rate (calculated per square metre) and ones which have been much more thoroughly renovated by the owner, and which can charge a far higher rent. Effectively, you get what you pay for. When I first moved to Berlin many moons ago I was in the East, in flats that were dirt cheap - at one point in the 90s I was paying less than 50 quid a month for a two-room flat, but it had oven heating on the fourth floor, the kitchen was effectively an oven and a sink, and there was no shower or phone line. But hey, I was a student and fit enough to carry coal up the stairs, it was a good deal at the time.

If I was paying over a thousand a month for a four-roomed place, I would damn well expect a decent kitchen to be included! Our last rental before we bought our house certainly had one. The house I linked to has a fitted kitchen.

I think part of the difference is that many people rent for their whole lives in Germany and there is a much lower rate of ownership. So people might be in a rented flat for 20 or 30 years, and they would actually see it as an advantage that they are allowed to install their own kitchens to their specifications, and then take it with them (or as is more common, you offer it to the following tenants for a mutually agreed sum) when they leave.

wrt to the dog, make sure you read up on the local requirements.
staffies for example are banned in germany.
and in many councils large dogs have to be character tested and must be on lead at all times in public.

wrt renting a place I would go via a repatriation agency, landlords can be vety picky and it's often very competetive and the forms to fill in can be very intrusive.

Hello everyone,

thank you so much for responding and apologies for the funkstille, both of our children seem to think at the moment that sleeping is way too overrated (and baby has been poorly on top of it). Apologies in advance for the lack of coherence:)

It's a big decision and we have been going on and on and over the lifestyle choices - living in a city/ urban area vs somewhere more rural in Switzerland and cannot decide what would be better for the kids. I read your answers to hubby and we came to the conclusion that according to what you said it looks like it would overall be easier to get on with life in Germany (I love the idea of outdoors but I'm worried that we may end up in a small village in France with my husband commuting to Geneva, but with no job prospects for me and totally isolated, and yes I do worry about living according to various rules if we settle in Switzerland- it's silly but I cannot imagine e.g. not being able to put the washing machine on at random times like we do now!

I'm also thinking that it would be easier to find someone (an english speaking au pair) to help with the half day school situation in Germany- we heard a horror story about people spending weeks securing a swiss work permit for an au pair from the US only to find out that she found a rich boyfriend within weeks of arrival and left in a middle of the day (leaving the kids alone at home, door locked, 2nd floor apartment).

AphraBane thank you for the link- I wasn't sure whether we wold be able to find something like that (I only managed to do my homework re: properties in HH and I could not find anything reasonable with a garden- this has definitely lifted my spirit! But - I forgot the kitchen issue! Made a note on my checklist!)
School wise- i'm being realistic about it but at the same time I've been working in a number of state schools in London in the past years and know that it can be worse. The only school which would (not sure though) take our kids is really not great and we cannot pay for two kids going to a private- hence the move. Ideally we would like to send them to a bilingual school and I will pm you over the weekend if thats ok with some more questions. In case we do move to HH we would probably send them to a french bilingual school though and they would have a space for our LO in PS in September. I couldn't find much information on bilingual schools in HH apart if the International one in Blankenese- way too expensive.

Regarding dog- its an eclectic mix of many, many breeds but there is definitely no staffie in it and he is relatively small (cocker- size) so we hope that we will be fine, provided we find a place to live where we can have a dog. And we are more realistic now about the searching process- will definitely have to go through an agency.

If we would move to Switzerland (outside of Geneva), would we get away with one car, or would each of us need one? I remember public transport in towns being great but what about train/bus connections outside? On the other hand I heard that parking permits are worth gold dust in HH- is that the same for Berlin (or is that a total myth?)?

I will look around Toytown over the weekend! Thank you once again!

Am a Swiss Romandie resident.

Switzerland is much more expensive than London. But you do get used to it. Personally i find the food much better quality, so you get what you pay for. Tax will vary dependant on where you live, something to watch out for.

The rules are at first quite mind boggling but a few years later i have no problem with them, i am quite an adaptable person though. My friend came to visit last year and complained so much about not being able to hoover out her car on a Sunday. Personally i couldn't see the problem, she knew the rules a week in advance, why didn't she just hoover it out on the Saturday.

We have dogs, there are dog taxes to pay so it isn't cheap. Had no problem finding a house that accepted dogs though. An apartment may be more tricky though.

Re au pair in Switzerland. It's my understanding you can only have one if you speak one of the official Swiss languages at home. I'm not sure of the situation in Germany with au pairs tho.

Heather I've read that the rule was based on the au pairs language.

Language requirements: The mother tongue of the au pair must not be the dominant language in the part of Switzerland where she works, in order to ensure the au pair is exposed to a new language.

So you couldn't be a German au pair in Zürich for example, but you could in Geneva, as the focus is on learning the language.

We are living in the Rhineland-Pfalz region, so not one you mentioned. People have actually been very friendly and open to us but Ex-pats and Germans have all warned us how unfriendly the North of Germany is. I have no idea how accurate that is, although a German woman I met who was from Northern Germany was horrified that her son was picking up what she called the "horrible" Pflaz accent so that was quite interesting! I think the accent here is very nice and much softer than many Northern accents. I guess it's a case of the North-South divide except the other way round.

So from my extremely subjective experiences I would be more inclined to try Berlin than the North of Germany, although I haven't been there - I just seem to hear good things and it sounds very dynamic and maybe more open to immigrants and new ideas.

Love Munich and Swizerland but they are both very expensive and I can imagine it being tricky to land a good job because those regions are so desirable.

I have lived in the UK and US and educationally the German system can be very structured and old-fashioned. However, my 13 year old is at Gymnasium and loves it. I would definitely do a ton of research on the schools in any area you are thinking of moving to. Our grammar school system is based on the German system I believe, so it's often just what you would expect an unreconstructed Grammar system to be like. However, German parents have been demanding change and some changes and reforms are slowly coming in. I believe Phorms is a group of state funded schools that are bi-lingual with English and I've heard good things about them, Otherwise the International schools are extremely expensive and most ex-pats have their companies picking up the tab so they are not realistic for the average family. The local schools are obviously the best ones to attend to integrate into the local community anyway so I would go with the German system, just be aware that there can be a few different choices locally such as all-day school (a normal school day in the UK and US!) or comprehensives. You need to do your own research and make sure you've checked out all available options because Germans often stick with what they know and can be unaware of newer schools with more flexible curriculum, even in their local region. I have found no problem at all attending any school we wanted to, even in a separate school district.

As your children are so young, now would be a good time to try living over here - our dc were 8, 5 and 2 when we arrived. We are all very happy, but then we do live in a wine region .

we lived in Potsdam while my other half was working in the Freie. I found the locals very friendly and we had a great time. We were very lucky with the school - I did look at the local "international" school but found them a bit sniffy really, didn't take to them. So DD1 went to the local Grundschule and they couldn't have been more welcoming and helpful.

I suppose what I'm saying is, is that it comes down to micro decisions really, and very careful research. And some luck!

Have to say I much prefer the climate down south though (where we are now). The cold really gets into your bones in Berlin - though that would have been down to my schlechte Kleidung no doubt Agree with HoneyandRum, living in a wine producing area is very civilised and bound to make you feel good about a place

Best of luck with your move, whatever you decide.

oh and I meant to say, the HUGE difference for us between living in England and living in Germany is the freedom our DDs enjoy. Children play out, roam around on their bikes etc the way we used to in the 70s, but certainly don't where we were living in the UK (NE England). That is one of the things that makes me very happy about living here.

"I believe Phorms is a group of state funded schools that are bi-lingual with English and I've heard good things about them"
Phorms is private, and the local Phorms near here at least does not have a good reputation. One of DD2's friends went there and her parents took her out for numerous reasons.

"The local schools are obviously the best ones to attend to integrate into the local community anyway so I would go with the German system" Not the case in Berlin, which has a number of state-run bilingual schools which are half German, hence there will be contact with quite a few German families anyway. German-only schools have a bad rep. for not recognising the special needs of kids coming from abroad.

"The cold really gets into your bones in Berlin - though that would have been down to my schlechte Kleidung no doubt"
Indeed. We had minus 11 a few days back, back up to the dizzy heights of minus 2 now! In fact it's not just the horrible cold in winter - in summer the heat is sticky and nasty and full of mosquitos. So you have minus 10 in winter and plus 37 in summer. It's a very extreme climate.

"the HUGE difference for us between living in England and living in Germany is the freedom our DDs enjoy." This is very true. By comparison the UK comes across as being incredibly neurotic about children's safety. And perhaps because children are given responsibility at an earlier age, they seem more mature (in a positive sense) as teenagers. It's a healthier culture for kids.

I'm looking out of the window now onto a winter wonderland of snow from yesterday, with one of 'our' three red squirrels in the walnut tree next door. That is just gorgeous.

Just read through this thread and feel . Lived in Germany [NRW] for 20 years and have now been in the Uk for 20 years. Feel like a change... My main problem regarding my own dc is what HeinousPieTrap has mentioned. Being a child in Germany is so different to the UK. My 6 year old dd is quite amazed that she would only just be in 1.Klasse and would be expected to walk to school on her own or with friends. I feel as if she has no time out with such a long school day and would prefer her to be home at lunchtime (conveniently ignoring that both dh and I work full time). In comparison to dd1 who is fed up with school at the age of 6.5, my childhood was bliss. Home by 12 most days, play all afternoon and spend a lot of time outside climbing trees, cycling etc.
And I miss having actual seasons .

So my question really is how easy is it to find a job? And can you tell me things that are really annoying you? I may well see things with rose tinted glasses because I've done all my grown up things (study, marry, buy houses, rent, have babies) in the UK.

Hi Jewel, I think things have changed quite a lot in the 20 years you've been away - at least in Berlin. No idea of the degree of any changes in NRW.

For instance you write: "in 1.Klasse and would be expected to walk to school on her own or with friends" I know very few DC in Berlin who walked home by themselves in 1. Klasse. Maybe it's more common in a Dorf still. I asked a Verkehrspolizist once which age he would think appropriate (the age at which DC would have enough of a sense about the dangers of traffic) and he said around 9. That's also the age they do their Fahrradprüfung and learn the traffic signs.

"Home by 12 most days, play all afternoon and spend a lot of time outside climbing trees, cycling etc." Again it varies greatly depending on where you are. Out in a Bavarian village, yeah, it's expected that Mum is home to look after her family , but here in Berlin there's a big drive towards Ganztagsschulen from 8 to 4, and every single Grundschule has to offer Betreuung until 13.30.

"how easy is it to find a job?" Maybe my view is somewhat distorted because my DC go to fairly privileged state schools (Europaschulen that tend to attract middle-class Germans), but I don't know a single woman who can speak good German and is looking for a part-time job but can't find one. The women without paid work tend to be English-speaking trailing spouses. Everyone else manages to find something, assuming you have reasonable qualifications and experience in your field.

"can you tell me things that are really annoying you?"
The lack of humour (yeah, it's a cliche, but so true sometimes) and the utter Besserwisserei. I watch a LOT of British TV on iPlayer. The tolerance of arrogant behaviour. Yuck. But it clearly doesn't annoy me enough because we're all going for German citizenship soon.

"I may well see things with rose tinted glasses because I've done all my grown up things (study, marry, buy houses, rent, have babies) in the UK." Funny - I've done it exactly the other way around, most of that stuff has been in Germany.

Hi OP -- I've just moved to Berlin and lived in London for a number of years, so thought I could share a few early impressions.

I think the quality of life you get for your money here is much, much higher than in London. The rents are definitely cheaper, nursery is free or very cheap, and the city is smaller so you don't spend half your life on the tube. People cycle everywhere, there are lots of weekly markets, lovely parks and playgrounds everywhere. Great cafes! Loads of kids and families.

We didn't have a problem renting a flat, but this is no doubt because DH already had a work contract (nothing extravagant). We were looking at 2BRs and saw a very nice range between 750 and 900/month. Unlike in London, where it's sort of first come, first served and you have to check the listings every day, we found here people would see a lot of people over the course of a week or two and then decide who they liked best.

We heard so many horror stories about getting a nursery place for our DS (3 yo) and it's true we didn't have any luck with the international/bilingual schools (they rarely even bothered to reply to inquiries). But we ended up finding open places at four regular German nurseries in our area, all of which seemed quite nice. The one we chose has a lot of foreign kids, so they are used to the language issues; they do yoga and organic food and loads of activities and have a huge playground. And it's basically FREE. You get a voucher from the local council (basically) for a set number of hours; 3 years and up usually get 5-7 hours/day free and I think they've extended it to over 1 year olds now.

Basically if you like London but just can't afford it anymore (which was our problem) then I think you will love Berlin. There is loads of bureaucracy to get settled but it's not too painful, and we've found a lot of things easier than people warned us about. Obviously it's early days for us but we're incredibly happy so far

Hi dreaming, always nice to hear of another Berliner MNetter!