Californiafrau and everyone else with experience as a foreigner in the German education system....

[Nightynight]

whats your experience of Ubergangsklasse?

Did your child/ anyone you know pass through an Ubergangsklasse and carry on in the correct year for their age in the mainstream Grundschule?

School says the children must drop a year if they do the Ubergangsklasse.
Schulberatung says, no, the children would normally stay in their correct year.

but who is right?

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i dont really understand your message but if its german schooling you want to know about?then my friend who is a teacher and has worked in germany could enlighten you but hes not about till sunday evening for me to ask?

thank you 7up. I am being bullied into giving the school a choice about where my children go next year.

The only choices on offer, are to repeat this school year, or go intot this Ubergangsklasse, about which I know nothing. I suspect it is for slow learners/problem children, and the school are not telling me.

I have to tell them by tomorrow though,according to them. Nobody in the official system will give me any meaningful information, yet under German law, they have total power to decide the future of my children. The whole system is barking.

Okay, nn, since no-one else has turned up, I've googled Übergangsklasse and Grundschule for you, and as far as I can work out, the term generally seems to be used to mean an introductory class for children who arrive speaking no German. Integration into the mainstream class would then depend on the progress the child made and his/her ability to cope with the normal curriculum.

The path taken through the system seems (according to the documents I've flicked through) to be potentially quite varied, depending on the individual child and the nature of the school -- so the next step from a special class may be for children to be in mainstream and still have extra German lessons ("Förderunterricht" is the term to look out for here). The thing to remember is that unlike English school classes, there is (a) a requirement for each child to meet the targets for that year group, and (b) a provision for children who do not meet the targets to be held back a year. There is also considerable leeway in the regulations for school entry, so some children entering German Y1 might still be 5, while others will be nearly or even already 7. So being out of your chronological yeargroup isn't the disaster scenario it would be in England. What would be horrid would be to be in a class where the level of the class isn't matched to the child's ability, as Gm school system is much less geared up for individual children to work at different levels.

On a quick flick through the Google docs I only encountered one use of the term Übergangsklasse to mean special class for disruptive kids -- in the main, at the primary level, it seems to be used principally for transition classes for non-German speakers. At 2ndary level they seem to be using it to mean a first year at 'Gymnasium' for children who've come up through Realschule or Hauptschule. But that doesn't affect you atm.

I suspect the provisions will vary according to which Land you fall under. But it sems unlikely that individual schools would have much discretion -- rules and regs tend to be set centrally by the Bildungsamt of the Land. But I suppose individual schools might differ in how rigorously they assessed individual children's progress.

I have no recent experience of Gm school system btw, mine was years ago. But happy to help you work through documents if you need more info.

hth

Something you might want to find out would be what the principal language is of the children in the Übergangsklasse. If the children are all from one particular language background, then you may find the teaching is bilingual in that language, which will be useless for your child. If they have a big mix of different cultures, then that's a different matter.

Would they let you go and see the class in action?

Also who the teacher is, and what teaching methods are used. Where did the other kids from the last Übergangsklasse go, and how did they get on? How many got held back ("Sitzenbleiben")? What would they do if a child progressed particularly quickly, or particularly slowly? Ie if you child picked up German more quickly than some of the others, could they be side-stepped into a mainstream class?

Have a long hard look at the make-up of the Übergangsklasse -- depending on the location of the school you may find most of the kids are from new immigrant families, so may be difficult for your child to find a soul mate.

It is a tricky one. Do your children have any knowledge of German atm? And how old are they?

hi frogs,
everybody official is telling me that the UK is normal...unofficially, stories are v different. I have heard many personal anecdotes of children who went straight into mainstream education, speaking no German at all.

My children arrived at just the wrong moment, in time to take the end of year tests, but not with enough time to pick up enough to do well in them. Given a complete year, the story would no doubt have been different.
So, the teachers are using poor test results as an excuse to kick the children out.

I want my children to have German classes. But they arent being offered German classes in addition to normal lessons, only this ersatz school, and personal anecdotes suggest it is for losers. The school is playing on my ignorance of the system, and nobody official will admit that it is for losers of course.

My children have gone from zero to holding a simple conversation since April, they could continue in normal school if they were allowed to.

I have been told that I must choose between 2 unacceptable choices, by tomorrow, I was given 4 days. I wasnt offered the chance to visit the UK, in fact they cant or wont even tell me where it is.

In fact, I am being bullied into putting my children into a school that I know nothing about, and it seems that I have no choice in the matter.

I asked what percentage of children stayed in their correct year for their age, and I was told that they dont keep statistics on that!

thank you for looking, and also for your kind offer of help with documents. All the official stuff Ive got is giving me the same sort of bland picture though. Getting the actual truth seems to be harder.

Which 'Land' are you going to be in? And what area? Are you in the UK now, and having to choose a school sight unseen? I haven't quite understood your position.

Sticking my neck out a bit here, but unless I was living in a community with lots of expats (diplomatic quarter, or somewhere with big multinationals employing foreigners) I would probably be inclined to assume that the Übergangsklasse is likely to be principally the kids of asylum-seekers and economic migrants. So probably I would move heaven and earth to get my children intensive language lessons over the summer and put them into mainstream school. Getting held back a year is by no means the worst thing that can happen, but being in a class of children from very difficult backgrounds is not ideal in a German setting. The Germans like to pretend they're not racists or snobs, but that ain't so. I've never found anywhere that did 'cultural inclusiveness' in the way that you'd find in an inner-city London primary with a reasonable proportion of liberal middle class people, for example.

We're already in Munich. Children started in normal school, in April, this was unfortunate because they were in time to take end of year tests, without really picking up enough german to do well in them.

next thing was, a meeting with the school and 2 choices: either my children repeat, or they go to the UK. It was a setup between all the teachers. They were all repeating what an advantage the UK would give the children, how hard it is to get places in it etc etc. The meeting was conducted entirely in German, everything was presented to me verbally, and at least one option was not given to me.(ie my children could retake the end of year tests in September). They didnt offer any help with translating anything, or any information about the options, apart from very narrow presentation of the choice that they clearly want me to accept (the UK)

It is clear, that for some reason, they want my children out of their school. The whole thing stinks.

ds2's teacher twisted his results to try and persuade me that he couldnt keep up if he went into Yr2. I pointed out that what she was saying was rubbish, so she had to fall back on saying that he wouldnt be allowed into Yr 2 because his handwriting was messy.

Im not a frightfully precious "expatriate" type, but neither would I want my children to be in a minority of 1 as a different nationality in any school. Also, I suspect that if the UK is seen as being for immigrants, it would be harder to go from there to the Gymnasium, despite the allegedly neutral tests.

Ah, well, Bavaria has a reputation for high academic standards (good) and being very full-on with children who're not up to speed (less good). I would probably feel differently about the ÜK in a multi-cultural, liberal place like Berlin than I would in Munich, but then I probably have an atavistic Prussian distrust of Bavarians.

What ages are your children, and which school years are we talking about? I think my decision would probably depend on how close in age my child was to the average for the Schuljahr, and how close to secondary transfer they were, where the primary teacher's recommendation carries a huge amount of weight. If your children are in the lower end of the class's age range, then repeating a year is not such a big deal. But if they are already one of the older ones, then there is more likely to be a stigma. And if you are close to secondary transfer and the teacher isn't happy to have your child in the class, then they may not write a recommendation for Gymnasium, which could make things very difficult.

It sounds as if the school are trying to make their own lives easy by making sure they don't have any children who might need extra support. Can you insist that your children re-take the end-of-year tests, and remain in their current year group if they pass? That would be a reasonable compromise, inasmuchas if they still couldn't pass in September, then they probably couldn't realistically keep up with the work in the higher year group.

Do you have access to an international-type school? I think my decision would also depend on how much I liked the school (doesn't really sound as if they're bending over backwards to help you, does it?), and how long I was planning to stay in Germany.

Oh dear NN. They do sound rather inflexible.
How old are your children, and what years would they be in according to their ages?
I think in your case, I would put to them that you would like your children to repeat the tests in Sept and go up into the next year. Sad as it is, but as far as I can tell (as you know I've no children in the system atm, but I teach trainee teachers) frogs is right about the non-inclusiveness of the German system. After that I think I too would prefer my children to repeat a year than go into the ÜK.
Could you possibly get your Kinderarzt and/or a child psychologist on side? 'Authorities' like that tend to be listened to.
If the school completely refuse to cooperate, is a different school entirely a possibility?
Am happy to help if I can (e.g. the language side, if you think you'd need it).

After that = as Plan B if they completely refuse to let the children retake.
(Needing to translate myself tonight! )

Ah yes, finding a friendly doctor or three and/or a cooperative psychologist would be a very good move. The Germans are such suckers for long wordy reports from people with letters after their names.

But in the end, I would be inclined to think quite hard about how much I wanted my children to be in a school that wasn't actually trying to support them in the most appropriate way.

thank you both.
well, have talked to dx, and we agree that we wont say yes to the UK option. We will go for the September tests, or repeat as a last option, though I am not keen for ds1, as he is already one of the oldest in his year. I think you are right, frogs, that the school is just trying to make their lives easier.

fit, they would be going into years 2, 3 and 4 of the Grundschule. The school have not mentioned the right to retake tests in September. I think they are being somewhat dishonest as well as lazy.

It is interesting to hear what you both say and think about the ubergangsklasse. I am getting faint vibes from all sides, that it is an option for foreigners who arent sufficiently clued up to escape from it, and who are destined for the rubbish heap. (German colleagues tell me that out of a graduation year at the hauptschule in Mch, only 3 or 4 will get a job by September)

frogs, suffice to say that I felt much more at home in north Germany...

frogs, I will be looking at other schools!

hmm, hadnt considered the doctor thing. I tend to run a mile from doctors/psychs unless Im actually dying. Do you mean, to say that it would greatly harm ds if he had to repeat, and that he can handle yr 3?

Oh god, yes, run a mile from the Hauptschule. I'd send my kids to boarding/private school in England before I'd touch a HS with a 10-ft pole.

A psych's and/or Kinderarzt report saying how highly intelligent your children are, how quickly they have acquired German and how it would be completely unjustified to back-class them without giving them an attempt at retaking the tests should meet the case. If you can locate a Dr/Psych who works with the local Schulamt, and who you can get onside, then so much the better.

I think the vibes you are getting from colleagues are probably worth heeding, in the same vein as you would take on board mumblings about an English school which looked good on paper, but which the grapevine said had a high proportion of disruptive kids, say, or was known for being ultra-pushy. Obviously gossip is not the final say, but German colleagues are likely to have their finger on the pulse in the way an incomer can't hope to do.

thank you for that tip, frogs! Ill keep that one in reserve.

Munich is very well supplied with private schools, but for 4 children (youngest not at school yet) it would be pretty expensive. Fees are around 1000 euros per term per child, not counting extras, at the French school. Grrr - I cant believe I am even thinking about private schools!

Oh, and as a last thought before I head off to bed: if you or dh have letters after your name, or have a high-up sounding job title or work for a big-name company, make jolly sure the school know that. You do need to make it abundantly clear to the school that they are not to be confusing you with someone who has just got off a long-distance bus from Sticksville in the eastern Ukraine in order to make a quick Euro washing dishes in some back-street restaurant.

I know that sounds outrageously snobby and even racist to English ears, but that is the way Germans' minds work, ime there is a tendency to lump all non-Germans together as lower forms of pond life, so don't let them get away with that. I too have had some outrageous conversations with German officialdom in my time, usually around the time that they discover that I do actually and legimately, hold dual German and British nationality for some reason the mere concept of dual citizenship lights German bureaucrats' touchpapers like nothing else. The general tone of such interactions needs to be very different to the way you would approach a similar situation in the UK -- whereas here being too pompous will get people's backs up, in Germany they only sit up and start taking notice once you pull rank.

I do feel for you, and hope you get the result you want!

ha ha the first thing I told them was that I studied at Oxford, for precisely that reason!

Problem is, I lose points because Im a working single mother, hwich is practically unknown around here.

thank you for good wishes - as a last resort it will be the french school or back to France! Will try not to let the whole thing cast too much of a shadow over the next few months.