Paris or Brussels- That is the Question

[LivFran]

Hi Everyone

Recently I posted some questions about Paris and schools for an 11year old and 6 year old. We have now had something else thrown into the mix Brussels. We may have the opportunity to live in Paris or Brussels for 3 yeas, as a family. Now, each have their own merits (but my heart is saying Paris).

Paris - beautiful, lots to do, good transport links for getting around, fashionable, romantic etc. Cons can be rude, abrupt and we won't talk about officials, apartment living.

Brussels - Houses with gardens, greenery, easy to get around, as we can take the car, good reviews for BSB school. Cons can seem a little boring, expensive and living in that expat bubble.

I would be very grateful, if those who live in either place or have lived in both, can give me their opinion on what it is like working and living there with kids. Paris is the obvious pull for me, even with the downsides, but the more I look at Brussels the more it doesn't seem that bad. In Brussels we would probably live in Tervuren/Duisburg/Vossem area. If, anyone has any suggestions, re areas to live with easy access to BSB that would also be very much appreciated.

TTFN

All the lovely things I was going to say about Brussels have already been said. I miss it terribly.

And remember... It's only an hour and a half to Paris by train . I went on a business trip from Brussels to Paris once, and was quite put out that my long relaxing train trip felt like it was over barely minutes after I'd got my book out!

I find it hard here some days - just be prepared for it not to be as easy as some other places.

I live in Paris but know Brussels very well and I agree that in Brussels you can have more of an expat lifestyle whereas in Paris you really need to try to integrate if you are to be happy. And that is hard work!

If you are going abroad for the long haul, then I think Paris is a brilliant destination and, despite what some people say, it is a good city in which to bring up children (better than London and NY) - without bankrupting yourself in the process! If, however, you are only going abroad for a short time, Brussels is probably your best bet.

There are two large international organisations in Paris (OECD and UNESCO), so you would think it would be more geared up to expats, but it really isn't. We both work, and I think our lives would have been infinitely better had one of us not worked, and been able to deal with the bureaucracy and the daily grind (schools all assume Mummy at home, which is unhelpful too).

The expats are less integrated than in Brussels (OK, so Tervuren is the British ghetto, but when we lived there, we had German and French neighbours) - the Americans and Canadians all live in the 16th (on rue de la Pompe!) or in the 7th, or in St Germain. There wasn't a large gathering of Brits in any one place in Paris, as far as I could see; most of them seem to be in a frightened little British bubble around BSP in Croissy or Le Vesinet. All of our American friends spoke French; none of the Brits did (or bothered to learn). I wonder why this is? I knew Brits who lived in Paris for years, married to French men, who spoke no French at all. I did have a couple of French friends (and a couple of Belgian friends when I was there), but I guess I worked with expats, so socialised more with them!

I think that there are two sorts of British expat in Paris: the sort who integrate, and whose children go to school at EABJM/EiB/Sections Internationales de Sèvres/Lycée Honoré de Balzac and also to some of the local Catholic schools - these are often mixed families and here for the long haul and most of those people speak French so well that you wouldn't know them from a native speaker (so not visible in daily life in shops, restaurants etc). They work in French companies like l'Oréal, Axa, BNP Paribas or in international law firms. And then the sort MrsSchadenfreude describes, who live very much on the fringes of French society, and maintain their Britishness and probably don't stay for very long. The two groups barely co-exist!

I've not found belgium geared up for the expats. Perhaps it's because I'm not in the international schools groups so don't have this instant social life and support

bigbrick - are you not in our little FB group?

I'm not in this fbook group. Happy to join

There are several "bubbles" in Brussels, ones surrounding international schools and I've met families here over 20 years, on expat packages, children have done their entire schooling in English and speak very little French or Dutch and never mixed with the "permanent" population and I've met families at international schools who do jump out of their bubbles a bit and you find them do activities in French and Dutch. There are bubbles around the European schools, children are often brought up on higher incomes in these schools than at the international schools! Most do integrate into local activities a bit from these schools, due to the emphasis on languages at school and the fact the majority of people working for the European institutions speak English and / or French quite well. Then there are bubbles around certain local schools too. Some local schools have intakes similar to international ones, with 40-50% non Belgians, 30 to 40 different nationalities. If you choose your local school right, your children can make friends with Belgian children and children of many nationalities, can do after-school activities in French and also in English, as there are many opportunities to keep up a life in English whilst attending a local French school, plus the parents are often more social than Belgian parents, who mainly work, mums as well as dads, whilst still a minority of non Belgian mums with children in local schools work, many trailing spouses. Bigbrick, where do your children go to school? Maybe your school is just one with few non Belgians in it, in which case it is a far different life to that experienced by many in the FB mumsnet group.

I don't recognise that no Brits in Paris speak French. I am a Brit who spoke perfect French in Paris. Practised in a large international law firm (in French and English) with a husband who is Irish and also spoke very good French and also practised in a large international law firm. We lived in the 12th in a lovely apartment overlooking the Parc de Bercy. Not expat land ... not a frightened bubble. And had many clever British and Irish friends who spoke excellent French.

Now neither my husband nor I speak excellent French although we remain fluent. De-skilled, by not having to. When first here I remember in a restaurant someone telling me I had a Parisian accent. Now they just speak at me in English!!

You can have a great life in either Brussels or Paris. You just have to bloom and and adapt where you are planted.

bigbrick, I found it very hard when I first moved to Brussels. I was working FT and a bit surprised that all my colleagues (Belgian company) got the train home to Liege or Ghent afterwork and NO socialising went on beyond lunchtimes.

Working meant I couldn't go to the BCT meetings as dd was first in creche and then in a local french school. So I made a concerted effort. I looked up the BCT members who lived near me - they used to publish a little book with names and email addresses/locations, no idea if they still do this - and organised a meet up with them at a local playground.

I volunteered for the BCT - joined the events committee. I am no longer a member even, but you will still find me serving tea and cake at the Xmas fun day. They are crying out for volunteers - I can send the details if you are interested. I organised the first ever MN meet up here and met some lovely people that way.

When dd was older and did things like Little Gym and Rainbow/Brownies i met more people. I got to know a few of the school parents. We have been invited to BBQs etc. It can be slow, but it does happen. The MN FB group I have PMed you about kind of cuts out the middle man. Lots of people who are very friendly.

Rushing - I am sure there are Brits in Paris who speak fantastic French - I know there are, I met several of them! It is the ones who congregate in the expat bubbles in the suburbs who moan about the lack of Marmite and sliced bread who don't tend to bother. It was the same in Brussels, with the expat bubble around BSB - families there for YEARS who speak no French or Dutch and have no integration with the local community. Bizarre.

I had the misfortune to be class rep for my daughter's class at BSB - I was the only mother who worked full time (who worked at all, actually), but ended up taking it on as everyone else was "too busy." It was a nightmare organising the end of term dinner and drinks - I wanted to organise cocktails and a fun night out in town, but was told by all the other mothers that if it didn't take place in Tervuren, they wouldn't go. Many of them never went into Brussels at all, except to get the Eurostar to London.

I had a very mixed group of friends in Belgium, which was great, and I'm still in touch with most of them. I also think that if you are in a country for the long haul then you do make more effort than if you are only there for three or four years. We were in Belgium for longer than we were in Paris, so felt a lot more settled. And I do think that if you are constantly moving on, then you do have a different mentality. As one of my expat friends said when I left Brussels "Don't expect me to keep in touch, because I never keep in touch with anyone who leaves, but if you come back on a visit, I will be delighted to see you."

BSB does have more 2 working parent families now I believe, but still very very much the minority. More families who live in Brussels now, the percentage living in Tervuren and Overijse is diminishing I believe, I'd put this down in part to the bilingual programme and the fact that more families have 2 parents working and usually towards Brussels or up in Diegem, so wish to be closer to work as well as school, living in between.

I met a class rep from BSB last year, again a working parent! Yes it's funny how those who already have more on their plate, seem more able to better use their free time to the benefit of others, just like Porto and her cakes serving with BCT funday - must go and put the date on the calendar, now I managed to grab a cakes serving place too, have had enough of crafting for them.

Well, they say if you want to make sure something gets done, ask someone busy!

Yay, we're off to Brussels, should land August. We all can't wait to go, so excited. I've just got a long list of thing to do now. Declutter house, get it ready to rent out, confirm schools, sort paperwork out for the car and on and on and on, but can't wait to get there .

Exciting! PM me to join our FB group. Instant friends if you like, or at least good advice.

This post is sooo old - but was this a government / home office post abroad?! As we are also potentially doing a 3/5 year, Paris or Brussels!

I can’t comment on Paris but came to Brussels for a couple of years and now over ten years here so let me know if you have any particular queries.

We’re in Paris. Not an expat family, more of a post Brexit move (finance). My son doesn’t attend the BSP, as our school fees aren’t covered, but I have lots of friends there and there’s a great social life. We live in the area close by the school; very pretty, safe and exceptionally fast travel into Paris itself.

I absolutely love it here. If you do move here, and specially to our area if sending kids to BSP, we run a series of coffee meets starting in September for new arrivals where we run through the whole living in France thing.

Do pm me if you want my thoughts on Paris.

Thanks for your response it sounds amazing! Will let you know if it ends up being Paris 😀

I have a million questions, we don’t get a choice where he will be posted so I’m having to research multiple places (or I could just be patience and wait til he’s told!) 🤣

I used to really rate Brussels as a place to live but it's much less nice IMVHO than it used to be. Also, for short-term expat postings as opposed to long term immigration, I think Paris has an unparalleled cultural offering to keep you busy and lots of people engaged in those pursuits to be friends with quickly.