Floundering being an English mum in France

[fanny75]

I have a charming DS, who is 3 months short of his 3rd birthday, and who is making me tear my hair out. Charming is perhaps the wrong word, but he certainly can be. He can also be an absolute stubborn pain, and I am wondering where I am going wrong. He started maternelle in Sept, just 4 mornings a week, and seemed to be doing ok. He doesn't have much French, and he hasn't really spent much time away from us, and with other children, so I wasn't expecting miracles. His teacher did say he did hit and push the other children, and he threw things around the classroom - but she didn't seem too surprised at that, so we are trying so hard to stop this. Then his teacher called me in last week to say she had a problem with him. Uh oh I thought, he's gone and pushed someone too hard and done something really bad. Fortunately it wasn't that. It was the fact that she had had to change him 4 times that morning. The kids are supposed to be clean (potty trained) and for some reason DS has forgotten all our hard work. So now DS is temporarily suspended until he becomes clean again. Has anyone else had this problem? I think it might be a control issue - DS saying 'no' etc, but he has always had problems with number 2s.

Also, how do French parents get their children to not scream and shout in public and have massive tantrums? I've just been out to the beach with DS, and when we were leaving you'd have thought the world was ending. Everyone was having a good old stare, and I know I shouldn't care what other people think, I would dearly love to be in on the secret.

It is just me and my DH and DS here. No family or DS loving friends, hence the floundering - any tips would be very very very welcome

You know what? The French way of behaving will rub off on you as well as your DS the more time you spend with French families (and watch their tricks).

My suggestion would be for your DS to spend more time at school (bring him home for lunch though) and for you to very actively try to meet some French mothers to hang out with.

Good luck! It does get easier as they get older and more integrated into French norms.

bonsoir without asking you to stereotype, what do you see as the main differences between the way French and English people parent?

French parents are more directive, stricter and tell their DC how to behave a lot, especially in the very early years. This can be a bit disconcerting to middle-class Anglosaxon parents, who are generally imbued with a sense that early childhood should be fairly free-range. I don't believe that Anglosaxon parents in France need to go the whole hog at all, as there are aspects to French parenting, especially among very small DC, that I think are really unnecessary as DC do mature and grow out of things in their own time. But in order to make friends with French families, it is probably best to tighten your general discipline a bit!

Thanks Bonsoir - I would dearly love my DS to be in school more, but until we solve the potty problem he's with me. I do have a couple of French friends here, but as it is a seasonal town everyone has been working their backsides off recently and not been socializing so much. Still, that will change now winter is approaching. Having never had DC before, and having not been subjected to the ideals and theories in the UK we're sort of fumbling along. I wouldn't say we weren't strict - certainly compared with my friends in the UK - I would just like to have a quieter DS. I have noticed French parents are armed with biscuits etc on the beach - maybe I should try that approach

Sorry I hijacked your thread Fanny but it's something I struggle with here.
Maybe he is just letting you know he's not happy with some things. I know when we moved here, my 2 were 2 & 4. They were a few tantrums about starting day care. My son had a thing about people leaving him and dying. Since they don't have the vocabulary they have to get you attention some how, Tantrums and the potty and great for getting attention.I think your right about the control things. It may be all a bit much for him. Keep calm and let him come through it.

I think screaming because he doesn't want to leave the lovely beach is a very reasonable response for an almost 3 year old. Don't be put off by people's stares. Either you are imagining that people are judging you, or those people are being annoying.

As far as the potty training, is he feeling stressed or pressured by the nursery? Is he using the potty at home, but regressing at school? It is a big change for him, and maybe the teachers can help you to make him feel more comfortable.

I don't think French children, or their parents, are more wonderful and fun than their English counterparts (or nicer and better behaved).

I don't think French parenting is an ideal - but I do think that, wherever you live, you need to adapt your behaviours sufficiently in order to be within social norms and therefore make friends!

Sorry, this might be something that you're already doing AND my DS is a year younger, but I've noticed it helps. Before we leave the park (which he LOVES), I let him know that we'll be going soon, then in five minutes, then he only has a little time left, what does he want to do before going. The timings aren't precise, it just acts to warm him to the idea. I also (now) have a drink for him and something to eat for when we're leaving and try my best to get him eat to g before a full tantrum starts. I also tell him that we're going to do X after leaving (and try to sell it as fun!).

It doesn't always work, but it has made a difference.

And when I don't manage and we have a tantrum, I shut everybody else out. It took some practice (I lived in France, so aware of how hypercritical people can be without uttering a word), but I really don't care now. You have a nice child who is going through a tough time and has limited ways of expressing himself. That's what matters, not the frosty glares. Putting him under a cold shower or giving him a "claque" may make him shut up, but that doesn't actually help him.

Good luck with the maternelle!

It does help when I say that we're leaving the beach/park/ducks etc in 5 mins, and that this is the last swing/bit of bread - I suppose I'm not consistent enough with it. And I do try to encourage DS to use his words and not scream and shout. Sometimes it all comes together so wonderfully. And sometimes quite the reverse! Food & drink also helps too. And ignoring miserable old peoples' stares!

With the potty thing, I've no idea what has happened. He was never perfect, but the sudden regression has been over the past 2 weeks I suppose, so some time after he'd started at maternelle. Today (so far) has been better. So fingers crossed he'll be back at school in no time and we can all make some friends.

Thank you all for your comments etc

Sometimes it feels harder here because we're not as familiar with the unspoken rules, and there isn't the same support network of people offering different opinions to solve the problem. I've had two DS's go through maternelle, as well as helping out at school too & can say for sure loads of children the same age as your DS do have accidents sometimes. When you're feeling happier about him going back I'd go & talk to his maitresse & explain you think it's more of a problem when he's stressed/under pressure/whatever that you've worked hard to help & could she or someone possibly just remind him from time to time til he gets used to the routine etc.

The hitting & pushing I would think is just pure frustration at not being understood & able to express himself & I'd agree with Bonsoir that will quickly become easier when he is at school more & has better communication. All 3 year olds have tantrums (ime!) It's how they are responded to that differs...

We spent the summer in France and I was amazed at how well behaved children seemed there. For instance, we wouldn't DREAM of taking whirlwind DD to a restaurant (ILs insisted we all eat together once as a family and regretted it!) but there were plenty of well mannered toddlers eating with their parents.

In French Children Don't Throw Food the author explains (her perceived) reasons behind the parenting differences, like teaching delayed gratification and disciplinary methods etc. Might be worth a read?

I have seen lots of French children having tantrums and they usually get a smacked bottom or a good public telling off. I think Bonsoir's tips are generally correct, you don't need to go this far but you may just need to tighten up a little bit. I do feel for you with the Maternelle - you didn't say if your DS was mornings only. This might be a way to start to break him in gently. I think it's important for him to get back into school from a language and integration perspective. Could a compromise be sought - trainer pants? ( I've had three through the Maternelle by the way)

If it was me and my DS, I would think reverting like that was a sign he was upset, or possibly had a bladder problem.

I can't imagine how overwhelming it must be bringing up a toddler in another country, particularly one that recently has become known for having quiet kids. Boo sucks to that book.

It's bad enough here: the looks and the tutting sometimes. Whenever I see a parent harrassed with a little one throwing a hissy fit I just think "it's their day today, it will be my day tomorrow". And it often is.

Taking on the extra stress of feeling like a whole nation is doing it better than you, is too much. And compared to my two, he's being pretty normal.

At my DS1's nursery, the kids were expected to be toilet trained at three. If they reverted and started having accidents, the nursery would say the kid was ill and couldn't come to nursery for 48hours. It was a way of saying the parents had to sort it out. As the parents were mostly working parents and couldn't really take the time off, the problem was usually sorted out very quickly.

Also think Bonsoir's perspective is invaluable!

Aagree with Bonsoir that French parents are stricter - there is good and bad obviously in any culture's way of being with their children. I don't like how free so many French parents are with smacking for example.

I think there is a lot less explaining done with children, they are just told. And I think sometimes that is no bad thing when they are small.

You rarely hear 'stop hitting that little boy because it isn't nice, you wouldn't like it if someone did it to you, darling, would you now.'

Rather 'you stop right now or we're going'. And they mean it.

There is a lot less pandering over food too, although the French school dinner system definitely helps here too.

Good luck with getting the weeing sorted out again - it is likely that it has all been quite a lot for your son and he is reverting a little. Wee soul, it is a lot for them when they begin maternelle, especially if French isn't his first language. They do get a lot out of it though and there is a great social side plus his French will come on in leaps and bounds.

I think French parenting is more old fashioned on the whole, more the way our parents were with us.

Yesterday turned out to be a great day - no wee accidents, altho he hasn't pooped for days now - its going to be a big one!! And we didn't have any real tantrums. Lovely. We've never had a problem going out for drinks or dinner - DS really enjoys it, and I love that too. I suppose on the whole he is well behaved, it is just when he's naughty he's horrid.

I agree that going to maternelle is/was a lot for him to get used to in one go. I hope we get this potty thing sorted soon and then we can all try again.

I also agree with Beachcomber, that French parenting is more old-fashioned. Certainly change isn't welcomed too enthusiastically here. And I don't like how adults treat children (and animals), but perhaps that's my inner middle class Anglo-Saxon coming out

My original worry was the potty regression, the behaviour query was a after thought - but it seems to have stirred up a few people. Sorry!

So any tips on getting your stubborn DS to poop in the potty??

Glad you had a good day today!

I think it all came down to bribery and corruption in the end. "If you remember to go to the toilet today, you'll get a star/haribo/to watch Peppa Pig" And then did a lot of cheering when it all went well.

All the best.

Quick answer to the poop in potty question - big bribe placed high up but visible in the bathroom worked for us. Dd got a book, but a friend got her ds a toy dragon and told him it didn't like children who pooed their pants and might fly away again!

I've tried the bribery - I'm all Peppa Pig-ed out, and there was a sudden influx of toys etc, but it was all short lived! I bought that 'Everyone Poops' book, which arrived today, but the most popular page didn't feature a poo. Mmm... Still, we did have some poos today, but DS didn't announce their imminent arrival. We need to work on that. I like the sound of the dragon who flies away, thanks Frau

On the behavioural side, I've spent some time staring at studying other mums here, and I think there isn't much difference really, everyone has bad days - my DS just seems to be more vocal.