Contemplating a move to Amsterdam

[Flumflumtree]

Hi
Job dependant we are thinking of a more to Amsterdam or the surrounding area. DH is going for a second interview soon. My DS is nearly 5 and DD 2.5 so will need to find pre schools and schools for them both. We can't afford the international schools but we are exploring the idea of the subsidised ones. We have contacted the one in Hilversum, Almere and Amsterdam but was hoping for some feedback on them from and mumsnetters and if there is any others I should be considering.
What are the areas of Almere and Hilversum like to live in? Not sure what our budget will be yet but what areas of Amsterdam are nice to live in with kids.
Also how do you find living in the Netherlands with kids? We have lived abroad before so kind of used to that side of things but its always unsettling a big move like this.
TIA

I'm a bit late to the party. We live in The Hague, near the beach and our two boys go to a dutch school. We speak a very low level of Dutch but our kids are fluent. There are loads of sporting clubs and activities for kids it is super child friendly here. There is a big emphasis on sport which our kids really benefit from. We love the boys school as it is montessori and free but I can see why you would be more interested in an international school. I can only speak about the ones close to us, there is an international, a British school, a European school, French & German schools and the HSV which is a Dutch school with an international part. All are very good as far as I have heard but the HSV is the cheapest at about €3-4000 a year. Way cheaper than the British school at € 14, 000.

We've had very good experiences of the health care, no waiting lists like the UK and while they are less interventionalist than other health systems when you do need them they are excellent. They are one of the healthiest countries compared to health spending in the world.

I am little aaahhh about the tax changes, are we definitely losing the tax rebate on mortgages, I know they have been talking about it for years but didn't know it had been passed. But we are leaving late next year so shouldn't be too bad. Plus at the moment I get €2000 a year from the government, & our great kids school is free so can't complain too much. We also live in a super cheap house.

I can say there are loads of ex-den haagers and probably loads from other areas of NL, in Singapore as BHP just closed its Den Haag office so you may even be able to find someone over there to have a chat with.

We don't want to send kids to the international schools that cost €14k as we just can't afford this. We are def looking at the subsidised ones or other bi lingual options but this where I get stuck. I have no idea how long we will be staying for but I think we would like to live in Amsterdam to begin with. My kids are currently in a Montessori pre school & previous to this one my son attended another Montessori nursery in uk. I would love to continue this style but I know this may not be possible. Basically I'm looking for any kind of school recommendations Montessori or other. I worry about sending them to a local school I just can't get my head around sending my 2 non Dutch speaking kids into a Dutch speaking school. I know most people know English but still I worry. I think my DS would struggle with this. Feeling a bit overwhelmed & don't even know if making the move yet.

Flum there are many Montessoori schools in the Netherlands definitely in Hilversum, I know a few people that send there children to them. Your DS would find going to Dutch school difficult at first but he would soon learn, my dd had extra help at school so that she could learn Dutch she was fluent in months although her grammar is a bit bad, many people tell me how good her Dutch. Her new teacher didn't even realise her parents weren't Dutch..

I think you need to wait till your husband is offered a job and then decide where you want to live, please don't let people put you off Almere, it really is a great place to bring up children.

There are loads of montessori schools in NL and even the schools that aren't use the Montessori ethos, they really got into her, I guess because Ms Montessori lived here for a while. Unfortunately currently there are no bilingual primary schools as the Dutch government will not allow subjects to be taught in another language until kids are 10 & then it is only English. There are mumblings about bilingual schools and there is a montessori school here in the Hague which is set to be the first bilingual state schools when the government approval comes through but for now the local schools are Dutch only.

I can understand your concern about sending them. Our oldest was 4.5 when we arrived and we thought we'd only be here a couple of years. We decided on a dutch montessori school as we will have them educated in montessori long term so for us staying with the system was more important than the language. As it is we have been here nearly 4 years and will be staying now until next October. It has been difficult at times for the eldest whose language acquisition was slower than expected but in the end the advantages have outweighed the disadvantages. To begin with he goes to a school where the kids aren't constantly leaving, he knows the local language and can therefore play with kids in the park and best of all he can take part in local run sports activities like swimming classes and gymnastics. The later of which is awesome here in NL. There are classes for all sorts of sports in English but they are super expensive and don't necessarily have the talent encouragement that the Dutch ones have.

Amsterdam is expensive but by all accounts that I hear it is a great place to live. There is a bilingual montessori pre school in Amsterdam but I think it has a waiting list. You could also consider Haarlem which is close to Amsterdam. Basically no where is very far away. We chose Den Haag because it has a large expat community, and the proximity to the beach. Being near other expats can have its cons as well as it's pros.

Don't be too put off NL, yeah somethings are expensive but we still save loads more here than we did in London, everything is bike able so we don't have a car and don't miss it. It has snowed the last few winters and usually at least for a couple of weeks we get to ice skate in natural ice! Which for an Aussie itls awesome. Plus shshopping in Antwerp, proximity to the ski fields of Germany & Austria. As well as fresh produce and Cheese!!!! Lots of cheese

I think that if you are not sure for how long you would stay in the Netherlands it would be a bad idea to send them to a local school.

I have taught in UK primary schools and now teach in a Dutch primary. The systems are as different as can be. If your kids enter primary school at a Dutch school and then have to move into the UK system in say 3 years time, then they will be absolutely miles behind.

The Dutch system moves very very slowly. Fine for below average children, do-able for average children and extremely non-challenging for above average children. The Dutch system doesn't stream, they have so called 'plus' classes but they really are a sweetener to tell parents that they are doing something, but are just a joke compared with the UK.

In the UK you expect average or above average children to have good reading skills by age 7, in the Netherlands they are still reading basic books, practising writing letters, doing number bonds up to 20! (in the UK they are practising times tables by now, eg year 3 curriculum). Dutch biology and history during the first few years of basisschool are nursery type stuff if you compare with the UK.

The Dutch system used to be good, but that was quite a while ago - they are now sliding down in the PISA league tables, whilst the UK is steadily climbing.

I also find that in Dutch basis schools discipline is a major issue, probably similar to UK sink schools in the worst areas in big cities. A significant part of kids have no respect for the teacher, don't listen, disrupt the whole class, with the whole class paying the price.

So, if you want to be able to return to the UK, I would like to strongly advice to look for a school which follows the UK curriculum.

Wow you have a bleak view of the Dutch system. Maybe we saw the bad end of the standard in the UK and are lucky with the school we landed the kids in here as that is definitely not our experience. My son was taught how to build a drainage system and how land formations effects water flow in the onderbouw. He is now in the middenbouw at a level of maths equivalent to his friends in the UK and reading in both English and Dutch at a similar level. He had some difficulties but was given loads of assistance. While friends with children in UK schools have seen their children ridiculed by teachers in UK schools. Maybe we have just been lucky and our experience in the UK was unlucky.

The British school is excellent, or so I've heard, very well resourced, but it is very expensive.

I think that there is a big problem with the Dutch curriculum especially for 4-9 year olds.

The lack of streaming seriously disadvantages above average kids.

Discipline in many Dutch schools is a big issue. Bullying is rife. In many schools there is a non-academic atmosphere, again disadvantaging above average kids.

Many of the younger teachers are poorly trained and there is no way they would be allowed to teach in the UK.

Standards in the UK primary schools where I have worked (all outstanding OFSTED reports) were much higher than those at the Dutch primary school (which is also considered above average) where I now teach.

Wow I just checked the PISA tables, there needs to be some major slipping and climbing before the UK over takes NL. I was pleasantly surprised to see Australia is on a par with NL (except in Maths) as that is the next education system the kids will be getting into. But wow the US, they need to pull their socks up.

Anyway, this only really matters if you need the flexibility to return to the UK. If you return during primary/secondary school, you are likely to find that your child is way behind and will struggle to perform well at SATS/11 plus. You may need to resort to intensive private tutoring and ideally start this well in advance (eg before returning to UK, to reduce the gap upon return) or alternatively, ensure that your child is following the UK curriculum.

Also, if you are not planning to return to the UK in the near future and your child follows both primary and secondary education in the Netherlands then the problem is not so great. If he/she wants to get in one of the top UK universities it may be tough, but the majority of UK universities will be within reach.

Well we are super lucky then, we have English friends commenting on how well behaved DS1's dutch school friends are at birthday parties, no bullying at all and the school does a bullying workshop for the kids every year. As far as above average kids in the UK I have three friends who have highly intelligent children who they have had to pull out of state schools because they could not deal with them. Plus I used to do work with the Camden LEA SEN panel for statementing children and dealing with gifted children in state schools was a big problem. Partially because schools used the extra funds allocated to the child for extra work, for other areas.

I think if bullying is rife then maybe the school needs to review it's bullying policy. I was just talking recently to a friend here about how much better the levels of bullying are here compared with friends experiences in the UK & Australia. Bullying is definitely a big problem in the UK, part of the problem there is social media as well as schools. Bullying seems to be an issue tbat some schools have trouble tackling. I think sometimes parents don't help, as often they are bullies to their own kids.

Glad to hear that you are very happy with the school where your children are. I am not saying that every single school in the Netherlands is bad. I am saying that there are far more bad than good ones, especially for the above average children. This is not just my experience, this is the experience of friends/family/other parents.

Bullying is a big issue in Dutch schools. Even the European Commission have ticked off the Dutch and told them to start taking this more seriously. You no doubt have seen the reports in Dutch newspapers of kids jumping under trains amongst other methods after persistent bullying.

Anyway, this is my experience of the two different systems.

OP should do what she deems best for her children.

Well this is an issue in the UK also, very sadly and also to a surprising extent in Australia. I'm sorry you have such a dim view of the education system of the country you live in. I don't consider my son or his school above average but at 7 he was writing stories and doing advanced maths which seems to be contra to your description of the system. Is this wrong, should he not be at this level in the Dutch system? His classmates where all doing similar and he was actually considered a little behind the national level for literacy.

Schooling is such a passionate issue even when you stay living in the same place it's just a minefield when you decided to move about. DH has a skype interview/chat next week to get a few questions answered & see if we go further with this move.

Just to add my tuppence worth. I had three kids at the British School in Amsterdam for 5 years and it is fantastic (still know a few teachers and families there). Would your husband's new employers pay for education? I know a lot of expats got that as part of their relocation package. Seem to recall that there is a tax break for international school fees if you qualify for the 30% ruling thought that might have changed.

Agree with above posts that food, for the quality, is expensive and watch out for mice!

We have a Benelux mumsnetter page and according to the members living in the Netherlands, it's much cheaper there than Belgium. If any of you want to join the Benelux mumsnetter page (it's not an official one or anything but it is a secret group so no-one else can see what you post or even see the existence of the group, well at least in theory), just pm me. I'm sure the Dutch mumsnetters would be happy to see a few more of them as they are rather outnumbered by us Belgians!

Pinkje no they won't be paying for school fees unfortunately

Bullying was considered a very serious problem in a number of Amsterdam schools when we lived there (2003-2012) and non-Dutch children were a prime target for bullies. A number of children transferred into AICS (Amsterdam International Community School) because of bullying in local Dutch schools. Unfortunately, although there were no major discipline or behavior problems in AICS, we heard about some very nasty bullying incidents which were dealt with rather ineffectively by the (Dutch) management.

I don't know how the bullying in Amsterdam schools compares to those elsewhere in the Netherlands or in the UK but I would think it is worth asking about if you go to visit the schools. Bear in mind also that most of the good Dutch speaking Amsterdam schools are over-subscribed and class sizes can be quite large.

I agree with LoveSewingBee about the typical academic standards. Typical standards do not mean some children aren't doing advanced maths or literacy age 7 but there is very rarely provision for them, even in the so-called Leonardo schools. Friends who moved from NL to the UK, France etc with children aged 5-8 (groups 1-4) were considerably behind in maths etc. AICS has very low academic standards and virtually no differentiation.

The British School in Amsterdam had a meltdown in 2010/2011 and friends of ours who have children in the school are still not entirely happy. We were unhappy with our children's school and considered transferring them into BSA but didn't do so in the end because we didn't have confidence in the teachers for their age groups.

We are like Flum we get the 30% ruling and that's it. But there are good things about NL, well the area I live in anyway, (& Almere by the sounds of it, must pop up your way Goodie). It's very child friendly, the Dutch can have a manner which is different and hard to get used to at first, but they are very honest, genuine, wicked sense of humour and have taught me a lot about patience. I think living here has been very good for us as a family. The Dutch are very non materialistic and will go on all day about how little they spent on a holiday, but will hide the fact that they have bought a big new car, or at least down play it, very different from other countries I've lived.

Luckily the school doesn't seem to have retarded my children and my 8 year old reads chapter books in both English & Dutch. The English bit we had to do ourselves. You will get expats who will tell you you should spend the money and send them to international schools and that is up to you. But it is just not something we could afford.

I will say if you do come here, eat out on good asian food as much as possible. The Dutch are great, but have a bit plain palate. Mice apparently are a problem, but we lived in London for 11 years so no where seems to have a mouse problem compared to there.

I meant eat lots of good asian food in Singapore. Though I think Amsterdam is pretty good for restaurants, so I shouldn't bag their taste here too much.

So Amsterdam move is off job wasn't right in the end & they changed the job description along the way. Thanks so much for all your input.

Thought I would join this thread to add my experience of life here into the mix. My children (4 & 8) go to the local openbare school (Dutch school) - we moved in April this year and my eldest has learnt Dutch from scratch. She now understands Dutch and is speaking Dutch pretty well ( she's had extra lessons with a private tutor for 2 hours per week, paid for by DH employer for about 3 months now) - the lessons are with two different teachers (50 euros and 70 euros per hour!!!!!). My husband gets the 30% tax ruling which is essential for us otherwise we could not afford to live here. We have been pretty shocked at the high cost of living here, I used to complain about prices in the UK but this is another level!

My eldest was classified as being Gifted and talented at an outstanding school in the UK - we decided to keep her back one year here until she learnt the language but she's now finding the work much too easy which is a concern for us, the school is going to test her after Jan and move her up a year if necessary. My daughter has had some difficulties with kids being 'bossy' in her class to her but I think that's how some of the Dutch are and teaches her how to be assertive which you need to be living here!

Regarding the comments about educational standards - I read a recent report that stated young adults in the UK are some of the most illiterate in language and maths in Europe whereas the Dutch came out on top along with Finland, Japan and Switzerland. Kids learn to read here later (age 6 I think) which would explain why perhaps children seem to be behind their equivalent peers in UK?

Regarding food - I too have been quite dissatisfied with the meals we've had out with the exception of eating in Amsterdam. I've had some dreadful experiences of customer service here ( had to wait almost an hour for a cheese sandwich with 2 young children in tow in a restaurant) while the staff served all the customers in the busy takeaway queue first!!! And as for clothes shopping, it's the worst place to buy them, no mirrors in the fitting rooms and over zealous staff pounce on you when you come out!

I do LOVE the biking here though, almost worth putting up with all the other crap just to be able to cycle so easily and safely. The kids have a great time living here too.

Hi all,

Has anyone got any recent experience on the Amsterdam International Community School - please, please? It would be an 8 and 6 year old - we have ruled a purely Dutch school out on the basis that the eldest would in all like hood struggle to catch up their Dutch peers, having already nearly completed 4 school years.

This is make or break for us in terms of if we decide to relocate.We are a UK family with no other languages.
We can't realistically afford the 2 fully private schools. I've heard the waiting lists are long and the standards fairly low at AICS - is this still the case.
I am worried as some comment that an above average kid will get bored easily - one of my daughters is trending 2 years above average in maths and reading and 1 year above in literacy.

Please anyone with experience - your quick reply would be great?

I have no experience there Laydee but there's a great Facebook group that I'm sure will help - the Dutch Education group, it's part of the Amsterdam Mamas group. Let me know if you have any difficulties.

Hi laydeefox, I couldn't not reply seeing as you pleaded so nicely ;)

I have some friends whose kids attend AICS and they are very happy indeed with the school and their kids love it too. However, I would urge you and I cannot overestimate this, to enrol your kids in a local Dutch school. It would be madness, madness I tell you to enrol the 6 year old in an international school unless you will live in Amsterdam for only a few years, ie, 3 max. Otherwise, I would put both in dutch school and have done that myself.
We moved with a 9 and almost 8 year old and both are doing great in dutch school, fluent now in daily life and in another year will be academically I reckon although it's not an exact science of course. They are achieving average ( C in dutch spelling, reading and comprehension ) and above average marks ( B in maths ) in standardised tests in February this year after 18 months at the school having started from zero knowledge. I expect this to rise to B and A in a year's time.

You have no other language, therefore you will give your kids the gift of bilingualism if you go down the dutch school route. If they go to AICS, they will not be fluent ever and will not even have passable dutch and certainly not be enough for them to engage with other kids on the street and this is where they will lose out. There is a lot of fun to be had out and about and speaking dutch will enhance their experience. Access to workshops at museums, cheap ( 40e a week! ) summer camps, subsidised local activities are all aimed naturally at dutch speakers so your child will have a richer experience being fluent. For the 6 year old, it will take a year to 18 months, the 8 year old, probably similar to my own kids trajectory. And do not keep your kid back a year as they will eventually catch up with the language and then it can be a nightmare trying to move them up a year ( experience of this ).

And of course the nice thing about International School is using English, international friends, easier for parents to get involved in the school etc. But for me, it has been completely worth the bit of struggle and our school is very open to me helping out which I do regularly. That's my two cents and my friends who went down the AICS route are happy too so there you go. One of the couples I'm thinking of didn't go dutch because they were scared and felt they wouldn't be able to manage in a dutch school environment but I think regret it now a bit. I've also met people who thought they would be here only a few years so went International and are here 10 years later. And that's coz it's a fab city to live in. Join Amsterdam Mamas facebook group, then join the sub-group Dutch Education Group and you will get lots of help and opinions! Hope that helps!