Could anyone talk to me about primary and secondary schools in Hamburg?

[FryingNemo]

I would be really grateful if someone could give me the lowdown on schools in Hamburg. My DCs are already fluent in German (written as well) so the language isn't an issue. I just need to get an understanding of how the school system works, what the entrance criteria area are and if there are any little foibles I need to be aware of.

Any general information on Hamburg would also be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Hey FreyingNemo,

it would be helpful, if you could share some more specifics such as have you ever lived in Germany? Are you german yourself as your children are fluent themselves.
Have you ever visited Hamburg etc.

Hello Worldcitizen, thanks for replying.

I've never lived in Germany and I'm not German. Neither is DH although he is culturally German IYSWIM - German is his mother tongue, he went to German school etcetera. It's a bit complicated. We're currently living in mainland Europe and have been for over 10 years now. Basically we are getting itchy feet. We have some concerns about the country we live in and are looking to move to either the UK or Germany. I'm very familiar with the UK but not so much with Germany. I go there regularly, have been to Hamburg and the area several times, I love Berlin and the North Sea Coast is fantastic. However, all my visits have been family holidays, visiting relatives sort of thing and I don't have a feel for what it's like.

My kids are bilingual EN /DE and are in a German international type school at the moment and I don't have any feeling for/understanding of the domestic German school system.
I also have loads of specific questions such as:
How are German schools in terms of pastoral care? Extracurricular activities? Is there something like the Times Educational Supplement for German schools? How are SEN pupils treated? How accepting are they of English students?
Thanks again.

Hello again,

I can wholeheartedly say that the quality of life in Hamburg is awesome. Loads of Germans and people from all over feel that way. Berlin is great, however it does have a reputation of being more of a transit city. Many Germans love going there and stay there for a while, but many also leave after a few years and tend to settle in other regions.

Hamburg is generally a city which suits "Brits" very well. Also, you can hardly get by without having to use your German, in Berlin it could very much be more of an Expat life, but here are other folks who live in Berlin and could give much better advice.

Overall, I wouldn't say that SEN pupils are in good hands here.

It truly, truly depends on where you would move to. There is loads of talk about class and social standing currently on other threads. Many expresing this to be a typical UK thing.

Of course, it's not!!!

Think of Germany in the same terms. We are also post code snobs. Your background, your hobbies, your views on life, your effort to ove into certain neighbourhoods and thus getting your child into a certain school will also determine your child's future and also the quality of schooling etc.

How well you speak German, with which accent, which dialect (no dialect) etc. are very important social markers for example.
This all makes a difference for families with SEN pupils as their ability to "demand" appropriate care and education for their children would be different.

I also would go as far as saying where (which country) you come from originally and what your level of education is and your professions would make a difference to how you'll be treated and supported as well.

Hope this doesn't add to any confusion

Should SEN be truly a concern, then I would recommend education in the UK and not in Germany.

Thanks for that worldcitizen. You've not managed to confuse me yet but made me realise that I have lots of homework to do!

How does one find out about which are the good schools / good areas etc?

I'm not too worried about not fitting in in Hamburg due to accent etc as I learnt my German from DH who speaks high German with a slight Hamburg accent which I have picked up.
Any advice on how to choose a school?

Hello frying
I'm from near Hamburg (a beautiful city called Lüneburg), but only returned to Germany nearly 5 years ago after many years in the UK. We now live in the Rhineland Palatinate area.

I do love Hamburg, although it is quite expensive. Lüneburg, about 30 mins by train, is considerably cheaper. I won't be able to help you much wrt to specific schools, as I am not from HH itself, but I am more than happy to answer more general questions.

Especially wrt to SEN I may be able to answer questions, as I have two children on the autistic spectrum. Their diagnosis, and the amount of support they get here, is the reason why we have decided not to return to te UK ( as originally planned). Just to give you an idea : our eldest (he is 6) just started school. He has a TA all to himself 40hrs/week, meaning absolutely full time. He also gets paid a taxi to take him from home to school and back again.

Ds1 is at an 'all day school' which is from 8am to 4pm. This type of school is still quite rare in Germany though, especially at primary school level.

If there are any other specific questions, please fire away :)

Hey outnumbered, sadly Lüneburg is getting more and more expensive (by the day it seems ) Lovely place and very beautiful!!!

I think toytown has great info, I only cannot understand why they're so touchy about possibly asking questions which have been asked before

Frying, I just got home, but I will look up some websites and phone numbers from the education department (Schulbehörde)for international parents.
You're more than welcome to pm me as I wouldn't feel too comfortable writing too specific information out here.

Outnumbered, I would be very interested in hearing why the UK didn't work for you. I have lots of parents here from India and various African countries, who all have much more positive experience with UK schooling especially for SEN needs.
There was just a major meeting between parents action groups and members of the education department last week not ending too well.

Thank you both for replying.

Outnumbered - that is really interesting to hear re: SEN. My DS is currently in the process of being diagnosed with something, we don't know what but ADS and ASD have both been mentioned. The one on one attention is exactly what we are trying to get for him at the moment in his current school. How does getting this sort of support work in German schools?

Worldcitizen, I will PM you - thank you so much.

In terms of areas we have been thinking of the Alster - any info on schools in that area?

With regards to expense - we're currently living in one of the most expensive areas of Europe so even Hamburg looks "preiswert"!

Hey Frying, would you consider paying a school fee? How about a school with religious affiliations?
All the Catholic schools are superb, you don't have to be catholic for that and there are children of other faiths and no faith.
The Wichern Schule is a jewel.
Have a look at Brecht Schule as well.

Other than that, living in Sternschanze, Altona, Ottensen, (also now in upcoming) Bahrenfeld, Othmarschen, Flottbek, Nienstedten, Eimsbüttel, Eppendorf, Winterhude, Rotherbaum, Harvestehude, Uhlenhorst, Altstadt, Neustadt, Hafencity is truly great.

Any of these you're familiar with and have considered already?

Frying, how old are the children to get an idea which grades they would enter.

We'd be looking to move schools in Sept 2014 so they would be 11 and 6 and so would go into Secondary 2 (or 1 as Grundschule here is 5 years) and Primary 2.

I'm not keen on religion in schools but would consider it if it were a good school! How are children of atheists treated in religious schools? Is religion compulsory?

This school is truly great, it wouldn't matter where you live

Wichernschule

Yes, religion would be required to take and yet, as I said, there are children of parents who are not Catholic etc and it's no issue as they also have philosophy and ethics.
I personally see it as Horizonterweiterung, but that would be an entirely different thread on its own.

Oter than that, it would depend where you reside, that would be the school(s) in your catchment area, which matters.
It doesn't matter when you move, there are no deadlines. As soon as you move and change residency, the school has to take your child.

September sounds a bit late though. Here is the school year plan

Schulferien

Oops! I'd forgotten that German schools go back in August.

frying sorry am not ignoring your question. Got a lot going on atm but will try and answer tonight.

Thanks outnumbered. Much appreciated.Th

So sorry, frying things are a but mad atm. During the day I didn't really get the chance to reply properly, and come evening I was too tired to.

With my experience so far, I would dare predict that you would probably need your ds' dx confirmed by a German body. 2.5 yrs ago we moved from the North to the arhineand Palatinate region. Before I was able to get any sort of support for both myself as well as ds1, I had to have him seen again. At first I was told that we would have to go through the whole dx process again, but I old them that was reficulous, and added, very unnecessary stress for me and ds1. Especially considering his dx wasn't even 3 months old...

We had ds1 tested in Hamburg at the Autismus Institut and found them very good. In any case, as soon as you know are def moving, you could phone them, ask to speak to the director (not impossible, I did!) and you could ask for advice what to do next, where to turn to etc

TAs, as they exist in UK schools, don't really exist in German school. And German teachers seem to be very touchy about having another adult in their class room, I guess worried about being judged/assessed?? What your ds would be entitled to is a Integrationshefer or Schulbegleiter. The hours/week get approved and paid for by the Jugendamt. In order to get as many hours as possible approved from the start, come over wih a big paper trail. And if you can show he is already getting 1-2-1 atm, I am sure it would help a lot.

Other things you can apply for once you are here are Behindertenausweis ( which will be useful for e.g. Your tax return), pflegestufe (both ds1&2 have Pflegestufe1, which means I get Carter's allowance of €315/month/child, as well as a yearly budget of €1500/child that I can use for e.g. Babysitters or people helping me out around the house with the boys. We also get something called 'zusätzliche Betreuungsleistungen' which is a Budget of €200/Month for babysitters/carers. But for this one you can't choose your own but it has to go through a professional service.

Anyway, overall, once you know what's available and what you are entitled to, I find that there is loads available. And according to the professionals we see here, authorities in the North are even more generos than they are here.

We are a member of the local Behindertenhilfe. They were great advising me what my rights are etc. and they would also complete all the forms for applying for Ehindertenausweis, pflegestufe for you. And if something got rejected, they'd fight for it for you. Membership is something like 25€/year, and well worth it!

Right, loads (probably too much) of info here, but who knows when I will be able to post again

hi there, I live in London but am from Hamburg so quite familiar with lots of schools and neighbourhoods. PM me if you have any questions. There are lot of good schools and also mediocre ones, there's nothing like the Times supplement (makes me chuckle! it's soooo different from the UK!), you won't get public exam data or rankings or anything. So lots of word of mouth, visiting places, reading about them.

There are excellent schools for SEN and not so good ones. Generally extracurricular activities are not so much part of school life, they are really extra as in taken outside of school since the school day is much shorter. You have some highly academic schools, some more artsy schools, Waldorf schools, international schools, music schools, and then also you have modern schools with group work and individualised learning, there's a very good new Jewish school, a French school, Swedish kindergarten, anything. In your case I'd look for a school which is integrated as in taking children from all walks of life and a truly inclusive school. Probably stay away from the very academic type of Gymnasien that teach Latin/Ancient Greek and stuff like that because they are usually not inclusive of SEN children at all. Things may have changed.

It's a lovely place.

sanam I really don't think you can generalize that much as to which kind of school will suit best. It really very much depends on frying's sons needs. As an example, ds1 we chose to enter into the inclusive all-day school, as he needs lots and lots of structure. And inclusive meas that staff is a little more forgiving wrt hs violent outbursts. In a different school he would probably have been suspended already, even though he only just started in August. Before school, ds1 went to an integrative preschool, as he (and staff) wouldn't have coped in a normal preschool environment.

Ds2, also has autism but is completely different, goes to a regular preschool and will probably be going to the same local primary school as the other kids from his group.

Wrt to secondary school, you really cannot generalize. Thankfully a lot s being done in terms of autism awareness, and inclusion overall is a major goal in schools. I am not near Hamburg anymore, but where we are now I know quite a few families now with autistic children. None of them go to special school, as most of them are high functioning. And a lot of them even go to grammar schools. One started at the 'humanistic' grammar school here last year, and although school wasn't too keen to have an Integrationshelfer, it is working out really well. One girl, a non verbal girl with autism, just started at the girl's grammar school in town.

We just need to look at the individual, their problems, strengths, weaknesses etc and go from there. Choosing the right school is difficult, but just sending them to e.g. the local comprehensive school certainly doesn't solve that problem.

And it really must be said that a lot as been done and is still being done in terms of rights, awareness etc in the area of inclusive schooling.

Outnumbered, that's really good to hear. Things must have changed a lot. I just wanted to warn that SEN provision in standard schools, esp grammar schools, is nowhere near the level you would find it in the UK.

I went to a humanistic grammar school and at least back then (and it's not that long ago either) there was zero SEN provision and it would be sink or swim for the child. It was very competitive and not a caring environment. There was only one boy with mild dyslexia and even for him there was no provision at all.

So what I wanted to say is look at each school (no matter if it calls itself integrated or not) and make sure to visit and talk to the headmaster and see how knowledgeable and aware they are of SEN issues and how supportive and warm the spirit of the school is. You can't take SEN provision that goes beyond lip service for granted, i would look very closely at which school I choose. That's all I wanted to point out.

Yes, i went to a humanistic gymnasium too, in Lüneburg. But I left 17 years ago...and I don't remember any children with special needs being there. But since then I thought at a different Gymasium (also in Lüneburg) and there were several children with SEN. And now, being confronted with SEN, Integrationshelfer, schools/preschools attitudes towards SEN, I do feel lots of positive things are happening.

But, of course, there are good examples and bad examples. And schools must be viewed properly to try ad find the most suitable one. I just don't think one can just 'rule out' humanistic grammar schools. Any other school could have the ttitude towards SEN you described. Where we are now, it's not the humanistic grammar school that's a problem, but a different I e. they are more than happy to take on a child with autism. As long as they have an exceptionally talented...No. Thanks.

Thanks everyone. I shall read carefully and ponder and will be back with more questions no doubt.
Much appreciated.