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Living overseas

Whether you're considering emigrating or an expat abroad, you'll find likeminds on this forum.

Is a move to singapore the best thing for the children?

33 replies

princessleah20 · 10/09/2013 06:57

Hi everyone I wonder if there is anyone who can offer any advise...this seems like a good starting place!
My husband had been offered the opportunity of transferring to singapore with work. We have ds who is 5 (6 in jan) and dd who is almost 2.
Up until a year ago I would have jumped at the chance but my son is really struggling with self confidence since starting primary school. He's just started year 2, goes to a lovely friendly and small village school, has lots of friends and is generally outgoing yet we have tears and anxiety every day.
I'm sure it's just a phase and he'll grow out of it but my concerns are obviously about the effect of a big move overseas on him...
Does anyone out there have experience of moving to singapore with a child of the same age?
What academic year would be in the international schools system?
Also leaving a close extended family behind, how do people cope with that?
Thanks so much, suddenly something I've always dreamed of doing is a scary reality!

OP posts:
noobieteacher · 10/09/2013 13:22

Losing extended family and moving to a completely different place sounds like it could be a problem for ds. Is it possible to stay?

princessleah20 · 10/09/2013 14:21

Yes it's not set in stone, but is a really good opportunity for my husband and a step up that he's been looking for for a while, but it is a family decision never the less
I was hoping to clarify my own thoughts before worrying family! but think I need to talk it through with mum and hoe that she can give me honest advise and not freak out lol!
Thank you your message xx

OP posts:
Saltedcaramellavacake · 10/09/2013 15:12

Hi. I live in Singapore with three DCs - aged almost 6, 4 and almost 2. I like it as a place to live with kids - great school, excellent travel opportunities to show them some of the world, lovely outdoor lifestyle. But is it "the best thing" for the children? I don't know.
If I was you I would be asking myself how much I rely on the close family network, and how much self esteem/confidence your son draws from having a network of love from the extended family around him. You will not get that with an international move. In Singapore you can get lots of inexpensive help in the house, but you cannot get the love and support of grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. How much does that matter to you?
On a practical level, your son would be in the same school year if you kept him in a British school like Dover Court or Tanglin Trust. It might be different in an IB/American school.
My kids settled well here (they were 4 and 2 when we moved and the third was born here) but not all kids do - if your son is struggling where he is he may well be one who finds a move very, very difficult. It would be a gamble. Look up pupsiecola's posts from the past year - her little boy was a bit older than yours but struggled terribly. A supportive, gentle school would be a must.

pupsiecola · 10/09/2013 15:38

I still check in here most days even though we're living back in the UK - hope that's allowed lol! We will go abroad again at some point (West this time) so I keep my eyes open on the threads! DH still commuting between here and SE Asia but is back on Thursday for 3 weeks then has one more 3 week stint to do before joining the UK office and moving in with us. We certainly appreciate each other more now having had 5 months of living apart.

Anyway, I digress. OP, Salted is right - a good fit with the school is a must. I wouldn't want to put anyone off the potential adventure of a lifetime that a move overseas can offer and whilst our time in Singapore was fraught with stress we have ALL grown from the experience and had some great holidays and adventures. All a bit more worldly wise too. But choose your school very wisely and don't be sucked in by the hype/marketing. If I had my time again I would have put DS' names down at Dover I think, even though that's not all good either. But a lot of the international schools are massive and my DCs were used to small village schools, especially the younger one (age 7 when we moved, now 8). From the sound of it your DS would suit a smaller, British school. How is he academically?

There is a big big difference between normal settling in stuff that does take around a year, and when it's sth more serious that you know in your heart isn't going to get any better.

Salbertina · 10/09/2013 16:08

Not to singapore but that age to internat sch, yes. Honestly, with mine, that age was NO problem other than the occasional wobble. Settled in v v well, such a flexible age. Older much much harder so do it now if you plan to at all.
Internat sch years normally parallel to uk- might be called Early Years though.

princessleah20 · 11/09/2013 09:16

Thank you so so much everyone for your replies I'm so grateful to get some inside info! Having had a lengthy chat with my mum over plenty of wine last night she was, a little surprisingly, very supportive of the move! She put my mind at rest somewhat regarding my boy. And has offered her support in any way possible. With all your great advice on here I feel slightly less freaked out lol and I think it's something we could go for as long as the job is right for hubby.
I think the main thing is going to be school choice and Dover does seem to stand out as the right kind of place for him.
Thank you for your insight everyone and I will keep you posted and I dare say will have a ton more questions along the way! x

OP posts:
noobieteacher · 11/09/2013 12:01

I must admit that my opinion comes from being born here in a expat family. I had no extended family here in the UK, and this had a long term impact on me and my siblings. However it is easier nowadays to keep in contact with people, a letter to grandma would take three weeks when I was a child.

butterfliesinmytummy · 11/09/2013 23:46

We have just left Singapore after 5 years in Singapore and at Dover (dd was there from age 3 to age 8 and dd2 did a year). I can say that if your ds is in the infant school at dover and if he's going to settle anywhere, it will probably be there. As with most international schools, they are very good at integrating new children and helping them settle quickly. If you've got any questions about Singapore or Dover, there are lots of people on here who can advise.

princessleah20 · 12/09/2013 13:27

I appreciate all viewpoints, thank you so much.
Have been looking at schools and Dover Court does seem to be the right sort of place for him and would be an easier transition for him.
Husband is in meetings all day today to talk relocation package to see what they will help with...
decision time fast approaching! will definitely have more questions so thank you all so much x

OP posts:
princessleah20 · 15/09/2013 16:43

Hi everyone so after talking it through with family and friends and a week of sleepless nights we have decided to go for it! Singapore here we come!
It looks like it will be end of the year/January so I am really concerned about being able to get DS into a school in such a short space of time. We would like to keep him on British curriculum which obviously narrows down our choices massively!
Does anyone have any inside info on the current size of waiting lists for Dover Court and Tanglin??
Thanks so much x

OP posts:
butterfliesinmytummy · 16/09/2013 02:44

You might be ok for Dover. They should know around now who intends to stay on after Christmas so will know roughly how many places they have for January. I would call them now (and dont be put off by the admissions lady who ive heard can be off putting).

Tanglin will probably just laugh at you. Their waiting list is years long, teachers kids and siblings of current pupils have priority so it's actually possible to slide down the list. You can pay tens of thousands of pounds to jump the slot and I know people who have done this to get children into the school for A levels etc. Call them anyway to see what the situation is.

There may be other options as your dc is little so curriculum isn't quite as important. I know Brits who are very happy at the Canadian school for example and there are mners at other schools in singapore too.

Congratulations on making the decision. Is a big step but a great adventure.

papooshka · 17/09/2013 07:08

My daughter goes to ISS, we are really happy with it. Its not linked to any nationality, its purely international (we are British). Its a small school, my daughter is 6 and theres only 4 classes in her year. Take a look at it if you come over as they usually have space as it seems to get overlooked for some reason!!
waves to Butterfiles (smile)

princessleah20 · 17/09/2013 07:24

Thanks so much for your replies Papooshka and Butterflies. I was anxious to keep ds on British curriculum for a bit more similarity/continuity but obviously that limits options massively! i worry that if and when we return to the UK it would be harder to reintegrate having gone off the British curriculum. Do you think it's daft to discount IB schools on this basis?

OP posts:
papooshka · 17/09/2013 07:58

I'm not a teacher and not sure of the curriculum in the UK, but when I spoke to my sil in the UK (who's a primary teacher) she said they were doing roughly the same stuff over here in Sing as in the UK.

mummytime · 17/09/2013 08:04

At that age I wouldn't discount international schools. UK schools are very used to children coming from all kinds of educational systems, and they tend to adapt well. Even private schools tend to be quite welcoming. Teenage years are more problematic, but then teenagers can be difficult themselves.

MasterOfTheYoniverse · 17/09/2013 12:11

From my experience in Singapore and Hong kong, most international schools follow the key stage 1 provisions for literacy and numeracy in early years. Its pretty much all play in reception with lots of Montessori inspired activities even at Tanglin trust and UWC.
The difference is that in Year 1 & 2 some schools (like the above, and that's where they get their reputation from) really get the ball rolling with formal learning to gently ease the transition into juniors where it really steps up a gear.

The problem really starts after year 3. There is only one word to describe the PYP (IB program) and that's bullshit.
So if I were you, I'd try and stick with a school that is low on the "global citizen" crap rethoric and just plain old fashioned with subject based learning.

At then end of the day, when navigating the international school system, the onus is really on the parent to make the best choices for the child. They are all for profit so try and figure out where you think your child will be happiest.
I have an older child who is self motivated absolutely thrives in a tiny school and a Y1 who is very happy in a bigger school with big class sizes because she is so feisty, that's what it takes to dilute her "Qi" Grin

Medal · 17/09/2013 12:18

Singapore, schools aside (as its been years since I've lived there so no longer familiar with them), is a fantastic place to bring children up. Great weather all year round for playing outside/swimming, a very outdoorsy lifestyle, and fairly safe. Wonderful holidays and travel opportunities nearby. I would grab at the chance to move there now with my DC!

peanutbutterhoney · 17/09/2013 16:24

Master why do you say the IB programme is bullshit? It's very well regarded in most places.

TinyPop · 17/09/2013 16:34

Following with interest, since I'm in a similar position,but you are several steps ahead. Good luck princessleah Smile

princessleah20 · 17/09/2013 18:20

Thanks tinypop! all happening very quickly and the stress is starting to build lol! When are you looking to make the move?
Great input from everyone thank you!

OP posts:
LillianGish · 17/09/2013 18:38

I've never lived in Singapore so can't really comment on that per se, but have moved my dcs around to various international schools and just wanted to say the great thing about those sort of schools is that they have a constantly changing intake. It's not like trying to settle into a local village school where everyone has known each other since nursery - there are always lots of new arrivals which I think makes it much easier to make friends. I'd go so far as to say that moving around has been the making of my dcs who are both very confident as a result and find it easy to make friends and adapt to new situations. I also think that for little children like yours as long as you are there holding everything together at home it makes no difference how far you move. Am assuming you are not working, of course this might not be the case, but I must say that I think another key thing for us has been that I am the constant keeping the home fire burning as it were so that everything carries on much the same wherever we are living. Enjoy your adventure - I've never regretted moving around.

princessleah20 · 17/09/2013 19:11

Thanks Lillian, very reassuring words and much appreciated having today written the longest scariest 'to do' list of my life!!
Cue large glass of wine!

OP posts:
TinyPop · 17/09/2013 21:23

Enjoy your wine - I've PMed you!

MasterOfTheYoniverse · 18/09/2013 04:44

Peanut apologies if you understood it as a swiping comment. The IB program delivers consistently in the end absolutely.
However, to be specific, I think the primary middle years program is lacking.
The schools are usually even very open about this.
This part of the syllabus (roughly years 4-9) is simply a work in process.
It is designed around the development, through this phase, of an ideal "learner profile" with no set content apart from general units of enquiry.
here is s link

So yes, great idea about developing a critical mind and a mindful, integrated personality. But it lacks content and focus and most teachers themselves grimly accept MYP and quietly pay lip-service to it.
Having been into the classroom often as a parent helper, I can only say that bar a few, most end up doing the bare minimum of Unit Plans.

MYP is a good marketing tool. If a school does PYP, MYP and DP, then it is an ‘IB World School’, which sounds mighty impressive. Parents like the idea of a school being part of a universally recognised system. The school sounds organised and accountable.

Below is a statement from a teacher who worked for 3 top schools in Asia and the Middle East. Its about why she thinks the MYP, even thought skillfully is essentially flawed for that age group.
Its strident but in my experience as the child of an expat & an expat parent it is an accurate way to look at it.

warning Its long and boring unless you actually have children going through the MYP

"What is MYP? It is not at all like IGCSE. With IGCSE English I am free to teach English how I like – as long as I meet the IGCSE exam and coursework requirements. During the two years of the IGCSE course I select the topics and the books I wish to teach and get on with it. Pure English. No special IGCSE jargon is required. Then, at the end of two years, IGCSE experts rigorously assess the students’ work. An ‘A’ grade at IGCSE English Language is quite an achievement.

MYP, on the other hand, is very very intrusive all through the 5 years of its existence (grades 6-10). (In passing, I’ve often wondered why, if it is so educationally important, MYP suddenly stops in Grade 10. There is no articulation between MYP and IB Diploma; MYP is completely forgotten!). When an MYP teacher teaches a topic or a book, he is supposed to frame the topic in terms of the 5 MYP ‘Areas of Interaction’: Approaches to Learning, Homo Faber (pretentious Latin for ‘creativity’), Community, Health, Environment. UNDER MYP, AN ENGLISH TEACHER IS NOT FREE TO TEACH PURE ENGLISH. I am supposed to genuflect before these 5 sacred areas and not only mention them to the students but also fill up a form showing where I have used them in my teaching. In Viet Nam I was also supposed to send MYP ‘task assessment’ forms home to the parents, indicating what MYP things the students had been doing.

If I am teaching 'Of Mice and Men' (one of my sacred books), I want to focus on the big themes, the characters, the use of English etc etc. I do not want to frame the book in terms of the MYP Areas of Interaction. This is a barren and unnecessary diversion from the main thing: appreciation of the book.

MYP has this simple template for ALL teaching. Everything is reduced to the 5 Areas of Interaction (5 Areas of Putrefaction, I call them). How simplistic and how patronising! We are introducing our students to the infinite variety of learning – in my case, of books and of language – and we reduce everything to 5 simple boxes! This is not only insulting but awfully boring for the students (not to mention the teachers). MYP is self-serving and pretentious. It feels a need to call attention to itself. It is THERE, in your face, in the students’ faces, from Grade 6 until Grade 10 (before completely disappearing in IB Grade 11). It diminishes everything it touches. You cannot teach PURE English any longer; you have to teach English with MYP. The students have to know the MYP Areas of Putrefaction like a catechism, like a sacred mantra. MYP DILUTES AND INTERFERES WITH THE MAIN EVENT – LEARNING ENGLISH.

Teaching in MYP schools, I have not had to change my methodology in any way. Rather, I am supposed to frame all the things I do in terms of MYP. MYP requires you to PACKAGE what you do in terms of itself. As I say, this is a barren and time-consuming exercise.

MYP is very proud of its interdisciplinary approach. It is old-fashioned to see each subject in isolation. Subjects should be seen as PARTS OF A WHOLE. This explains the ubiquitous Areas of Interaction. It also explains the Interdisciplinary Units that all teachers are required to do. As an English teacher, I am supposed to do a unit of work with a colleague from another subject area. So, for example, the Drama teacher and I will do a joint unit on monologues. This will be planned and marked by the two of us, and it will show the students that ALL SUBJECTS ARE LINKED. Again, this is, in my opinion, stating the bloody obvious. All subjects are naturally linked by the same teaching methodology which underlies them and by the common language used at the school - English. We teachers teach different things using broadly similar teaching methods.

It is folly to try and link, as MYP seeks to do, all subjects by their content – using the 5 Areas as common denominators. School subjects ARE different. The world of the Chemistry classroom is (apart from common teaching methodologies and the English language) a million miles away from the world of an English poetry lesson. Any attempt to link them is contrived.

What happens, in practice, with the MYP Interdisciplinary Units is that teachers, in order to fulfil MYP requirements, devise artificial and cumbersome linking units. Planning such a unit – which means meeting the other teacher or teachers - is time-consuming. I have always thought that a good teacher will, in the normal course of events, occasionally do a unit of work in cooperation with another teacher BECAUSE IT IS A GOOD IDEA – not because it is required. For example, when I am teaching ‘1984’, I will have the History teacher come into my lesson to talk about Stalin’s Russia.

Nowadays there is an equation between being a good MYP teacher (i.e. you fill up the required forms, speak brightly at MYP meetings – in short, are SEEN to be fulfilling the MYP criteria) and being a good teacher. The whole emphasis in some schools is on MYP.

Well, all that MYP requires you to do is to use its terminology and its 5 sacred areas as a frame for your lessons. It is essentially flimsy and insubstantial BUT time-consuming and intrusive. Good teaching practice (creative, inspiring lessons; good relationships with the students etc etc) is separate from MYP and has existed since the birth of education. I would prefer to work at a school where teachers are left alone in their departments to teach their subjects and are evaluated in the time-honoured ways.

MYP has been a huge drain on teachers’ time and energy. English meetings in my 7 years at MYP schools have been dominated by MYP – MYP form-filling, MYP protocol. We have NEVER talked about the things that really matter in English – ideas for stimulating lessons, the best books to teach, our policies for teaching spelling and grammar and so on.

As I see it, many schools espouse MYP not because it is intrinsically any good, but BECAUSE IT FILL A GAP – the gap between PYP (which seems to be quite OK) and DP (universally admired). As I say, MYP is excellent for marketing a school to new parents.

My Vietnam school used to do MYP and IGCSE together, which was crazy. The two systems are incompatible, and the demands on teachers and students to satisfy both systems were punitive. IGCSE eventually lost out - a sad day for the school. IGCSE is far more rigorous than MYP and therefore, ironically, a far better preparation for the IB Diploma.

The MYP Personal Project that the Grade 10 students do is pretentious and lacking in intellectual rigour. I am currently supervising a student who is designing a golf manual. It is beautifully presented, very easy to read, and the student is enjoying doing it. However, this is no sort of preparation for the rigours of DP. After writing his manual, my student has to link it to one or more of the 5 Areas of Putrefaction. It is no good just writing something good; oh, no – after your piece is written, you have to write a number of paragraphs connecting it with MYP. Why? Presumably because MYP is so important. (as I said before, if MYP is so important, why is it suddenly forgotten after Grade 10?) All the students I have supervised for the Personal Project have found this final stage – linking their product with MYP - very tedious.

In fact, I have yet to find a single student who finds MYP stimulating or enlightening or interesting in any way. IT IS AN ENCUMBRANCE FOR BOTH STUDENT AND TEACHER. I feel particularly sorry for the Grade 6’s and 7’s (whom I don’t teach), who should be enjoying their lessons in the normal way, who should be learning about the vast tapestry of life, but who are being force-fed MYP Areas of Putrefaction and made to intone sacred mantras like ‘Homo Faber’. It is obvious to me that MYP is a flavour-of-the-educational-month gimmick. Nobody who has been through MYP will, in later life, say “Oh, MYP was so interesting and thought-provoking!” People forget educational jargon; what they remember are things like enjoyable books and projects, interesting teachers.

Finally, let me draw an -. The current vogue for MYP reminds me of the fairytale The Emperor’s New Clothes. Too many teachers accept MYP uncritically instead of asking “What good is it? What is there of real substance in it? What good is it doing the students?” Like the child in the fairytale, who cuts through all the bullshit and sees the Emperor as he really is, I have to say “MYP has no substance; it is pretentious and empty; it does not enhance education in any way; it is a confidence trick, a cynical money-making ploy used by IB and schools; it wastes the time of teachers and students.”

The real substance of education lies in the subjects on the curriculum. What students will remember for the rest of their lives is not the 5 Areas of Interaction but Lennie’s fight with Curley in Of Mice and Men or learning to play the violin or a Chemistry experiment.

peanutbutterhoney · 18/09/2013 10:33

Master thanks for posting that - I found it very interesting. I did the IB diploma and found it to be a great foundation for university etc, but at the time the MYP didn't exist so I didn't know anything about it. Very interesting to hear it described by a teacher and agree it sounds frustrating and pointless. I hope to send my kids to international school one day (possibly in Singapore, which is why I am on here) so I'm glad to have the background info. I probably would have just assumed it was good based on what I know of the IB... So yes, good marketing I guess!

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