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Can anyone in Germany talk to me about grundschule?

35 replies

oranges · 05/09/2013 14:03

can I ask what age children often are in Year 3? My son joined mid year at a bilingual school - German and English - in year 2 in feb 2013.

  • he was born in 2006 April. He moved up to year 3 in August. He has no German, but is getting extra tuition. I felt in Year 2 he actually went backwards in handwriting and maths and picked up no German either. This year he's much happier, but is younger, smaller and less fluent in German than the rest of the class. The teacher is suggesting he may be better off repeating year 2. I don't mind, but I worry he will not learn anything anyway, and get bored. Any thoughts?
OP posts:
FrauEnglischLehrerin · 07/09/2013 08:12

Ooh, Picardy, I'm in TH, too, in the south. Whereabouts are you?

Nullius isn't there more flexibility in the system regarding ages? Dd will be a "Muss-Kind" to start school in 2015 with a May birthday, but MIL, because she thinks DD is a genius as she can already read, has asked teacher friends of hers whether she could go straight into y2 and they have said that that would be theoretically possible. I can see if a family moved from the UK with a child who had already had two years of schooling that they might not want to put their child into y1 just because that would be the appropriate age group.

Interesting discussion about problems in learning maths. I read a book on maths recently which said that the linguistics of counting hugely affect how easy children find learning maths. Apparently a lot of Asian languages have single syllable words for all the numbers up to ten, and even that gives them an advantage over speakers of European languages. German was mentioned as being particularly difficult to learn mathematical concepts in.

NulliusInBlurba · 08/09/2013 16:46

"Nullius isn't there more flexibility in the system regarding ages?"

Again, that differs enormously, not just between the Bundesländer, but also from year to year as different parts of Germany try out frantic kneejerk reactions to the 'Pisa Schock'. A few years back Berlin went through a phase of allowing no Zurückstellungen at all (allowing children to start school a year later because they are not perceived to be psycholgically/physically 'ready' for it) - there was a huge parental backlash and now Zurückstellungen are allowed again, but officially disapproved of, and the numbers differ hugely between the Berlin Bezirke. It's essentially unheard of nowadays that a child would be allowed to start school in Berlin directly in year 2, for two reasons:

  1. The introduction of the Schulanfangsphase mentioned by Quince above means that most children spend two years doing two years' work, but 'able' children move straight up from the first to third years, and some children spend three years doing the same material in the Schulanfangsphase (which is what oranges' DS would effectively be doing here if he returned to Year 2). So the logical time to 'leap' a year would be after Year 1, not before it.
  2. Berlin already has the youngest pupils in Germany (many start before they're 6). The idea of an able 5.7 yo being sent into Year 2 to learn alongside 7 and 8 yo is frankly inadvisable in terms of being less emotionally well equipped to deal with practicalities.

But Thüringen doesn't start school quite as early, and also doesn't have the Schulanangsphase system, so it might not be so completely out of the question to go straight into Year 2. On the whole I would discourage it unless your daughter is an out-and-out genius with a desperate thirst for knowledge who is also socially and physically highly competent. Otherwise the danger that she might feel under pressure throughout her school career and ultimately have to repeat a year later on (which would be psychologically quite damaging at secondary level) would be too great, surely.

"i have no real idea why he was even moved up to year 3 as we knew there was a chance he would stay behind in year 2." - it's the timing of this teacher's comments I find so strange. The conversation about whether a child goes up to the next class would usually take place in the last few weeks of the previous school year, not a month into the new one!

MrTumblesBavarianFanbase · 08/09/2013 18:22

I feel the urge to rather pointlessly add my comments... (Very late to the party seeing this)

My DD was born in Sept 2005 - she is about to go into year 3 and will be the absolute youngest child in her year, by a margin of over 2 months (next youngest being an early July birthday). She was a "Muss" Kind (because the one thing that has changed in Bayern in recent years is the cut off date, from June to Sept, so she was not quite 6 starting school). She is OK (was very verbally advanced in both her languages starting school and almost all her friends were and still are half a year or more older) though not a genius and struggles with maths probably for the linguistic reasons others have mentioned in part (though I am pretty sure maths was never going to be her strongest subject).

My son is Sept 2006 born, only a year younger than the OP's son, and we are not sending him to school this year - his German is also native speaker fluent but we don't feel he's emotionally ready for the Bavarian school system and will benefit from another year at Kindergarten (what we are doing is the Zurückstellungen referred to by other posters).

As far as I know Bayern never changes much, ever Wink believing that that it ain't broken so doesn't need fixing (the school system in Bayern is traditionally regarded within Germany as one of the most/ the most rigorous, but it is also very old fashioned).

The states are so different the input of anyone not in Berlin may be redundant.

In oranges position I would 100% repeat year 2 - I have never understood why people think children will be insufficiently stimulated because they can already read well, when they have an entire new language to get to grips with! :) As children can end up repeating years as well as having been held back in the first place, a child who is young for his year in year 3 could before long end up in a class with children 3 years older - with all the self esteem issues that can potentially come with being the youngest and smallest - not to mention potentially one of the least emotionally and socially mature (pick last for sport, last to hit puberty/ start dating/ be able to drive/ drink beer/, wanting to stay out late with the 18 year old classmates when he is 15...) I personally think being the youngest here is a much bigger deal than just being an August birthday in the UK, because of the potential for being years younger than classmates down the line.

FrauEnglischLehrerin · 09/09/2013 10:59

Nullius it's interesting to hear about the Berlin system. I've heard discussions about the Schulanfangsphase on the radio - it sounds like a great idea in theory, but from what I gleaned, a lot of people feel/felt that teachers hadn't been sufficiently prepared for the changeover.

Re DD going straight into y2 - you are preaching to the converted. She will be one of the younger children in her year anyway, plus she is small for her age and not particularly outgoing. Also I can't see why she should be bored if the work at school is initially quite simple. I think some German parents must make a big deal out of "school isn't like kiga, you know, ab jetzt wird's ernst" and then their dc complain that they are bored when they get the same sort of exercise that they already did in their Vorschul preparation at kiga.

mrtumbles I think oranges was worried that her ds hadn't seemed to pick up much German in y2 because most of the classes were taught in English and that repeating that year wouldn't help to increase his exposure to German.

AmblingAlong · 09/09/2013 12:04

Oranges I hope they agree to put your ds back into year 2. It's almost inevitable that he'll be in a mixed age group as he goes along anyway if you stay in the German system so he won't be the oldest for long. Ds has dc in his German secondary class who repeated a year in primary and then again in Gymnasium so quite an age difference but it doesn't seem to bother them and they all get along.

FrauEnglischLehrerin you're right that the teachers aren't sufficiently prepared for changeovers, in Berlin especially. Every new idea or system to do with school gets tried out in Berlin first! I had a friend there who had 3 grown up children and she said since the wall came down, her dc went through more changes and new systems than she could count. Not one of her 3 dc had the same system. I think it has slightly settled since then but still, if the powers that be decide on something new again it'll be in Berlin first.

MrTumbles you do have the most rigorous, but old fashioned schooling system in Bavaria but atleast it has stayed constant and you more or less know what to expect!

oranges · 09/09/2013 12:11

Thank you! I've now found out (and PLEASE be discrete if you recognise the school) that all the children that moved up with him to year 2 from that one particular class were not taught basic maths properly and need extra lessons to catch up. So the problem was the teaching. And I was correct in my view that he had learnt NO maths that year as he hadn't! .

He had only been there half the year though and had a very good grounding from his earlier school so managed to keep up. So if he does go back I need to insist he goes into a different class. I'm happy for him to go back in to year 2 for social and development reasons, but not for another 'lost year' of maths. But if the problem has now been acknowledged, hopefully it will be resolved

That was the main reason I was wary of him going back down. And yes, the conversation about which year he goes into SHOULD have been had before school started, not a month afterwards, but its clear there were lots of things going on at the time.

Thank you for whoever explained Schulanfangsphase too - that was the clearest explanation I've seen!

OP posts:
AmblingAlong · 09/09/2013 12:27

Great that the school is talking to you and admitting their mistake - that's not often the case!
Ds had German teacher who used to hand out sweets and the answers to tests without teaching much German at all but even after repeated meetings with the head teacher for some reason she wouldn't admit to any of it as being a problem!
Hope your ds is feeling OK about it all. How is he coping?

NulliusInBlurba · 09/09/2013 15:39

"I've now found out (and PLEASE be discrete if you recognise the school) that all the children that moved up with him to year 2 from that one particular class were not taught basic maths properly and need extra lessons to catch up."
Oh good grief, that's a real facepalm moment. Don't worry, I would certainly keep that to myself - to be honest, while it's terrible that your DS has had to put up with this, it's not totally out of the ordinary in the chaotic state bilingual system. DD1's Year 7 group (first year of Gymnasium) was a catastrophe for the entire class solely because of poor management.

"you're right that the teachers aren't sufficiently prepared for changeovers, in Berlin especially. Every new idea or system to do with school gets tried out in Berlin first!"
Both of those statements are so true, and really at the heart of the problem. Friends of ours chose a junior school about 9 years ago because it was trialling a new system and had loads of extra funding and extra teachers made available (and it was a pure coincidence that one of the teachers there was the wife of a certain well-known senator). It attracted more middle-class parents, got a good reputation, and was declared a roaring success by the education department and rolled out across Berlin. This new system was of course the Schulanfangsphase, which unsurprisingly didn't work so well when untrained teachers were expected to deal with a wide range of learning and age groups totally unsupported. Now, finally the senate has allowed heads to choose whether they use SaPh or not, and I think it's around 60% of monolingual schools have it right now (meaning that 40% have reversed the polics of just a few years ago). The head of our school flat-out refused to consider it and said it was incompatible with bilingual education.

The majority of parents are utterly fed up with all these half-arsed initiatives supposedly aimed at raising standards and encouraging disadvantaged children to perform better. These are worthy goals that I want to encourage, but the politicians keep on insisting that every school in Berlin does the same thing instead of targeting the measures (and funding) where they're most needed.

"I think it has slightly settled since then". Don't think it has really. There is still enormous conflict between the Senate and parents about the Zurückstellungen and Schulanfangsphase, the mayor of Berlin seems to hate the bilingual schools because they are elitist (that's true, actually) and the Europe School system is constantly under threat. Berlin schools are finding it enormously difficult to find teachers of any sort, let alone the best teachers, because they refuse to pay the same rates as other Bundesländer (last year DD1 was in a German class of 34 - that's actually illegal - because the school couldn't find another German teacher), and it seems to be a spectacular challenge to find good headteachers or deputies because they are appointed when they pass certain exams rather than because they have the best personalities and vision for the job.

On the other hand, British schools are equally insane, but about their admissions procedures instead; we have no hassle about uniform; and I'm actually really impressed with the quality of what my DC are learning from individual teachers - the ones who seem genuinely committed to their job and like kids. They're learning at an academic level which is waaaay above what I was being taught at the same age in the UK 25 years ago. So it's not all bad. Oh, and we live in the best city in Europe too Wink. That has to be some compensation.

Katja74 · 05/10/2013 09:40

Hi everybody, very useful information. I am german and have lived in the UK for the last 15 years. I have 3.5 year old twins who, by english law are supposed to start school next year in September. I am undecided wether to send them to the german school (bilingual) or a UK school. They are growing up bilingual and it is very important to me that they do not only learn to speak German but to also learn properly how to read and write it and I am concerned that going to a UK school they will never achieve that level even when attending german tuition.
Any comments are welcome. We have enrolled them at the german school but will only know in April if we got a place in the Kiga. Hopefully somebody will come back to me soon.

outnumberedbymen · 05/10/2013 11:59

Hi katja i think you are more likely to get replies if you start your own thread. Also, perhaps post in the language/bilingualism section? There you will have more Gernans living in the UK - whereas here you have Brits living in Germany. Hth

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