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Sell up & move to OH's home country? WWYD? (Long post)

36 replies

Squeakyswing · 21/03/2013 16:44

OH has brought it up yet again, and I need opinions.
OH is from Slovakia, but has lived in the UK for about 14 years. We have a DD who is almost 2. A few months ago we bought our first house, and I hoped that OH would finally be happy, as he hasn't been satisfied with his life in the UK since I met him 9 years ago. A couple of weeks after we moved in, he was told he needed a heart op due to a genetic factor we knew nothing about. Since then, he has understandably altered his views on life and feels it's too short to be in a country he's not happy in, and he is also concerned he won't be able to stay in his job. He is even more miserable than usual with his life, stating that he has no friends, not much time with DD or me, stressed, and we don't get much help from my family despite having moved closer, so we don't get any time together as a couple. This is particularly bad as our relationship suffered after DD arrived and we don't have the opportunity to discuss issues as they come up, and he's not very good at handling issues anyway.
So he's asking me to consider selling up and moving to his home town in Slovakia, where his family is willing to help out and give us time to ourselves, and he would get a job in his sector with fairly good pay as he can speak English well. We would get a new mortgage for an apartment, and I would teach English as I have a teaching qualification.
I like his home town, it is a main town not a village so I wouldn't feel too cut off, but I don't speak much Slovak, and I find the way things work over there quite infuriating at times. His family is also quite overbearing. There are more pros than cons for DD and OH, but more cons than pros for me. It's a good place for DD to grow up, as the air is clean and there are lovely mountains and countryside, kids have a more innocent childhood there and it is child orientated, the pace of life is slower and education and healthcare is fine. But I'm well aware of the sacrifices I would make, such as being further from my family and not having much money to visit them etc.
I think I want to get it over with so we can both see if it really would be the solution OH thinks it would be, as I've tried to avoid it for so long. But I was just settling into our lovely neighbourhood and had such high hopes here.
WWYD?

OP posts:
coffeewineandchocolate · 25/03/2013 12:11

Squeaky if i was in your position i would probably go for it BUT with safeguards in order

I disagree with the people who say to rent out the house. I would sell it and split the profit into two individual bank accounts and then rent in Slovakia until you decide whether you can live there permanently. You said yourself that the relationship probably wouldn't survive if you decided to return to the uk and this way you have no financial ties.

Make sure you are qualified to work over there and there ate jobs

Check your legal situation as to whether you would be able to return to the UK with your daughter if things don't work out. You don't want to have to remain there stuck in a custody battle.

Have all the numbers if the local British government agencies and support agencies before you go.if possible have the number of a good English speaking solicitor.

Discuss and put in writing with your dp the agreed role your in laws will have before you go over. You can revert back to this when if they interfere and ask for dps support.

Have an agreed find in place for flights back so you can see your family before you go.

Maybe try to find other British people living out there online and chat to them do you have your own support network and are less isolated and dependent when you go?

God luck with whatever you decide

Squeakyswing · 25/03/2013 17:44

Hi ZZZenAgain, good points. At the moment I am financially dependent on OH, so even a poorly paid teaching job would be a step up for me. I am a qualified dental nurse but I'm not having much luck finding work as I'm looking for part time til DD is used to childcare. I think a lot of this is down to my career; it's a long story but I've lost all interest in dentistry, and I really don't want to go back to it after over 2 years, but it's the only thing that can make more than the cost of the childcare. Without me getting a job we don't have any hope of overpaying the mortgage, which is OH's gripe, as he'll be paying it off for years and he doesn't want me to be left with the burden of it if anything happens to him. I have had a few job offers in Slovakia in the past, one was from the local uni, but my plan would be to just earn what I can as a teacher til I learn the language. But we have booked a 4 week holiday there, so we can contemplate the possibilities then.
Coffeewineandchocolate, also good points. Hmm, whenever the topic has come up before I've looked up expats online, but the majority in Slovakia are single 20 somethings with no ties, or wealthy American SAHM's in Bratislava, which is a distance from OH's town. I am pretty sure any friends I make will be locals, so the only person who will know how I'm feeling will be OH, who knows all too well what it's like to not speak the language, but of course won't have had much experience of being a mum in that situation.
I think the only way we'll ever decide to go is if the situation with OH's job reaches a crisis point and we have no other option, or he gets a job opportunity over there that would be too good to refuse. As much as he likes to complain, neither of us take a risk unless it's been calculated to death first.

OP posts:
PureQuintessence · 25/03/2013 17:50

I wouldnt.

5 years ago I dragged my dh and our two boys (then 3 and 6) to my native Norway.
It was a nightmare living there for many reasons. But dh was not happy. We returned to the uk 2 years ago, and we both feel we have spent a lot of money and resources on uprooting ourselves and the kids for nothing.

If he is not happy here, who is to say he will be happy back there? And is his happyness more important than yours?

Dh always used to say it was fair to stay in the country you met in. Turned out for us, this was true.

Fairyloo · 25/03/2013 17:55

I have family in Bratislava and I wouldn't move there for a million pounds. Grey, bleak people are negative. No culture

WillowTrees · 25/03/2013 22:44

PureQcan I ask what you, as a native, found wrong with Norway?
We're having discussions at the moment and a move to Norway looming and I have a sick feeling in my stomach at the thought. (sorry OP for making it about me!)
I lived there for 7 years, hated it at first (Bergen) all the rain, not knowing the language, feeling an outside among partners friends who had all known each other since preschool, hated the lack of multiculturalism, single mindedness of everyone there and the fact my education wasn't recognised. Moved to Oslo, slightly better, had Norwegian education by then and comparable job to what I would have in UK, 2 kids came long, still felt like an outsider, but had good friends, didn't feel like 'myself' though, because they couldn't say my name so had to change it to one they could pronounce! Then a job offer in Sydney came and we have been here for 5 years, was like being saved from drowning to come here. Can speak the language, culturally similar, I love the place and am confident in education system etc for kids, was also a joy for me to have them make the transition to English as a mother tongue. Downside though, DHs family never accepted us being here so have basically ignored us for 5 years, except to ring occasionally to tell us to 'come home', DH feels bad about this and feels we owe it to them to come back. My mum not a traveler so never visited.
I don't want to go, but would like to try UK, DH says no (financial reasons, as you know wages are higher in Norway). I feel like I'm going mad, would you share the negatives you found compared with UK? I know I am about to make the biggest mistake ever, but can't seem to be able to argue against the free school/uni, Norwegian wages & DHs family 'helping' (I think he just wants to move so they can take them for the weekends, but I would hate that!)
Sorry again for diverting the thread ...

NomNomDePlum · 25/03/2013 23:00

i think it's highly unlikely that you could make any agreement which would over ride your husband's right to refuse consent for your daughter to return to the uk if you wished to and he didn't. slovakia is a signatory to the hague convention, so the child's normal country of residence is enforceable. in your position, i really wouldn't risk it.

PureQuintessence · 25/03/2013 23:14

I think I had a very rosy view on Norway, not having lived there since I was 20. I had never been a grown up there, and just found it backwards and cumbersome, compared to the UK.

Norway has a lot of bureaucracy, and long-winded rules. We struggled with tax returns, and did not like that we were taxed on our salaries. Taxed on the possessions we bought with our net salaries, not only in form of 25% vat, but in terms of tax on ownership of our car, our home, etc. Taxable value of house and car, should be on the tax returns every year. I found it taxing (forgive the pun) to deal with all that. In addition any possessions owned in Britain were also liable for this tax.

Everything in Norway is expensive. Going to a coffee shop for a bun and a coffee is easily £15. Eating out is prohibitively expensive, in a good restaurant you will spend £30 on a starter, £40-£50 on the main course, £30 a bottle of wine, another £30 for dessert, it makes the £3 spent on a glass of water seem reasonable. Per person. (aside from the wine) One glass of wine in a wine bar is £10. Life in Norway therefore become very basic. You visit coffee shops or cafes, or eat out very rarely. It affects your quality of life when you constantly feel that a nice meal out with friends is virtually impossible as a couple you cannot afford to spend £250 (including a bottle of wine to share) plus babysitter (usually paid £20 per hour).
My dad pays his cleaner £50 for 21/2 hours.... Our invoice from the accountant helping us with our tax returns were £16k the first year, 7k the following year when they had learnt how to deal with Norwegian/British tax regulations.

We could not manage to run our UK business from Norway, so this was one big reason to return.

The other big reason to return to the UK was bullying. Our oldest son had a terrible time in school. The children were almost without exception nasty. They did not accept our son because he spoke very little Norwegian. They said he was British, and Brits were stupid. They made fun of him at every occasion. He had nightmares. He cried, did not want to go to school. There is no discipline in Norwegian schools. The teachers tactics are to try be friends with the children, cajole them and persuade them to be nice to eachother. Sitting down for a chat, and write out a "Good behaviour Contract" for all the children to sign, and bake together if they managed to stick to the contract for one week!

The parents? Well they were all too keen to stand by their own offspring and not one of them tried to find out what was going on, as long as their own children were happy. If my son was hit or kicked, it was surely HIS fault. He must have provoked it. That was the general consensus from both the teachers and the parents.

Norwegian children are very "streetsmart", they play out unsupervised from a very early age, 3 year olds are playing out with 5 year old siblings looking after them. They fight and they squabble. Parents say "well, let the kids sort it out themselves, I was not there, so cant take sides. I am sure they will make friends again soon" And so children play without guidance and without adults supervision. No wonder so many grow up without empathy and dont learn right from wrong until they are teenagers and start thinking a little!

One of the teacher was quite happy to build up on the difference between my son and the other children, saying stuff like "My little Englishman" rather than look for similarities.

Norwegian school system is inherently bad. They dilly dally and learn at a very slow pace. My son came from the UK and were put together with children his age, 6, which was the first year in school. As you know children in Norway start school the year they turn 6. My son had been to school for two years already, but they like to follow the age group not ability levels. My son was therefore marked out as a genius. And that is not a good thing in a country where there is very little competiton and very little recognition for able children.

The flat management structure found in working life is reflected in school life. They learn as fast as the slowest learner. The motto: Nobody should be left behind.
It is very good for the slowest learner of course, but this means that majority of children are not stretched at all and end up bored and disruptive. And for my son who had two school years behind him, and finished Y3 maths curriculum by Christmas in Y1, it was not great. That is when the teachers decided to stall him until his class mates caught up. By Y4 they had still not caught up.

Well, you asked my personal take, and there it was.
My son woke up this morning, 1 1/2 years after we left, having had a nightmare that he was beaten up by hordes of kids, saying "mum please promise me we will never move to Norway again". Sad This was in the North though, could be better in the south....

WillowTrees · 25/03/2013 23:56

Thank you so much, you've just 'verbalised' my concerns, which makes me feel slightly less crazy, that these are my concerns :) DHs family, just go on about what a godt og trykt country it is! The school thing is one of my biggest concerns, my middle child has started kindy in Sydney, is thriving, but in Norway will go to barnehage and not start school until August 2014, he may be fine with this, but equally he may find it hard as he has had all the 'big boy' transition to school stuff. My girl is 7, and an average reader, but reading at the level of a 9 year old in a Norwegian school ) according to DHs cousin, a primary teacher in Bergen). My kids are also horrified at the idea of being turfed out to play everyday in the rain/sleet/snow/shit weather!
The money thing is also a worry, we have no disposable income here and live in a small flat, but it is possible to do simple things here, like grab a coffee and go to a beautiful park/beach with no effort involved. Prices here are similar to Norway (housing etc), but no one would pay $10 for a Starbucks coffee at the airport, compared to gardermoen.
Also, I work 3 days, and with 3 kids it seems to be a nice balance of work/family life, yet I would again be going against the cultural norm in Norway, where everyone works full-time, and yet again, always on the defense when it comes to my choices, I would also not send my 3 yr old 5 days to barnehage, but take her out 1-2 of them, to no doubt lots of noise by barnehage and mil, exhausting ... This was highlighted by all the things the ministers were saying on International women's day.
Now what to do with all this info Confused

QuintEggSensuality · 26/03/2013 09:34

I think you will find that every Norwegian thinks Norway is the best country in the world. Wink Others might say it is due to propaganda and how the state tv channel NRK communicate news items. ...I bet the average Norwegian think that the only sport taking place in the world are those that Norwegians excel in, like Langrenn and hopp! Aside from Football. Hmm

My family are like your inlaws. Always talking about how fab Norway is and how everything is better in Norway. You cant really blame them, they dont know any better. Now I just let it wash over my head, I nod and smile and cant be bothered to engage. How can I make my 86 year old dad understand that life in Britain is not synonymous with Eastenders, and people dont spend their spare time in and out of pubs watching football and drinking pints of bitter. Eastenders has a lot to answer for when it comes to the perception of Britain by foreigners. If only Emmerdale or Heartbeat had enjoyed the same international viewer rates!

You will be a lonely sahm! If you dont agree with the way of life, working full time and having all your kids in nursery, you will find there is nothing to do with your children the days they are off, unless you spend all your time out in nature doing "stuff" - weather permitting. There are not really any monkey music or soft play to speak off. And few other mums to socialize with. Norwegian economy is based around two adults bringing in wages, that is what you need in order to afford life in Norway!

Good luck with your decision!

Squeakyswing · 26/03/2013 11:50

Sounds just like Denmark! My uncle married a Dane, so I have Danish cousins, and when I visited them as a teenager I went to school with one of them for the day, just to see what it was like. Very slow, it was like the last day of term in primary school when I was a kid, when the teacher tells you there are fun activities planned instead of regular work. The kids were about 13 at the time, and spent 1 1/2 hours chatting while doing some sewing with their feet up on the desk, Shock then at break they played music really loud in the playground with their own ghettoblasters! (It was the early 90's). When my cousin came to the uk, she did the same at my school, which was a ridiculously strict state school with ideas above it's station, and she laughed out loud at the teachers for most of the day!
My uncle and aunt are constantly going on about how wonderful it is there, and my Mum buys into it, but I was sceptical even as a teen. If remember thinking, 'If it's so great there, how comes there are so many alcoholics sitting in the gutters?' Hmm

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 27/03/2013 10:51

I don't think you should go

It sounds like you do have some problems in your relationship -- you say he's not good with 'issues', he's been unhappy for a long time. The move may bring new issues, with an overbearing family, the isolation you will have to cope with. So you have to be realistic and think there is at least some chance that your relationship might not work out.

If that happens, you will be stuck living in Slovakia as a single mum for the next 15 years. Are you prepared to do that? Because that's a very real possibility, unless you think your DH would allow you to take DD back to the UK.

I have a friend living this now here in France. She came here with her partner, they split up, and even though he was abusive, the court gave them joint custody. So she is effectively stuck here for 15 years. She cannot even move to a different part of France where she could get more work. So is scraping by on teaching English but it's not stable work, she is relying on benefits and it's a pretty stressful existence.

Your OH has been living in the UK for 14 years and has not been happy the whole time. It is pretty convenient for him to think the problem is the UK, not himself, but this is probably not true. Otherwise why didn't he leave many years ago, before he met you, before you had children?

I would only consider doing this if I had a usually happy and supportive partner, who had considered a whole range of possible solutions to his unhappiness and thought a lot about how I would be affected, who I could trust to 'give it a go' but return if it didn't work out, who would back me up if his family were in the wrong... you see what I'm saying?

I think you would be taking a huge risk. You need to be careful.

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