2013 ist schon da! A new Kaffeeklatsch thread for the New Year - living in Germany and Austria

[LinzerTorte]

All welcome - whether you're living in Germany or Austria, have questions about life in those countries or just want to chat.

Previous thread here.

How do the school years work, then, if there are some DC who are just 7 and others who aren't quite 6 at the start of school? I know it varies depending on the bundesland. (did I spell that right?) DS was born on 5 October 2008, am I right in thinking he'll start school in September 2015?

Bertie I don't get it either. Dd will also start school in 2015 (born May 2009). The new school year here starts in August most years, but I haven't worked out whether August-born dc start as the youngest or as the oldest, or if their parents can choose. And I don't know whether September-born kids are Kann Kinder and can start at age 5, or whether that system isn't used here in Thuringia. Nor do I know whether the cut-off is different in the years where the school term doesn't start until September.

I think in your case, although your ds may be a Kann Kind and could start school a year early (depending on Bundesland), you won't want him to because of the language (or is he already bilingual). Or he's a genius like MIL says dd is and will have to start year two at age 6 because otherwise he'll be bored.

Just a quickie cause on my phone.
We survived the orthodontist with no great drama altho she was less than pleased by how she looks when she smiles. He only did the top ones today because they need to go back a bit first before the bottom ones can go on. She's just tucking into mashed potato & mashed baked beans so think all is ok so far.

About schools - ds1 has an October birthday so could have started age 5 nearly 6 but we kept him back till he was 6 nearly 7 but one of the girls in the village whose birthday is 4 days later than ds1 started school when she was 5.

Ds2 has an end of August birthday (yeah yeah poor planning here too!) but started school just after his 6th birthday & is coping surprisingly well. In the end I think you know you're own child but if there's the possibility to wait (ie October/November birthday) then I'd let them wait.

I'm thoroughly confused by all the Kann-/Muss-Kind business, but luckily don't have to understand it as it doesn't exist in Austria. The cut-off date here is 31st August, and that's it (unless it's decided that your child isn't schulreif). Your DS would be one of the oldest in his year, MrTumbles - the August-born Buben are the worst off here! I've noticed that the month in which they're born seems to affect girls far less than boys - at least among the children we know.

DD1 had her first Hörverarbeitungstraining today. It's a little stressful as we only have 10 minutes between the end of the training session and the start of Musikkunde, but hopefully it will be worth it (especially considering the fortune it costs).

Can hear screaming and DD2 in hysterics... had better go and investigate.

Glad to hear the orthodontist went OK, Ploom - hope your DD gets used to the braces quickly.

Ploom Glad the orthodontist went well. Dh and the dc are there for their first appointment right now. They´ve been gone ages and we´ve got to go out soon.

For whoever asked, I met dh in Canada while I was travelling. He´s German and was also travelling with a friend. There was no big romance, but we swapped addresses and kept in touch maybe once or twice a year for the next couple of years. He then visited me in England and we started a long distance relationship for 4 or 5 years before I finally moved to Germany and we married 18 months later.

We do OPOL at home with the dc, but speak English to each other. This is because I couldn´t speak German when I met dh and when I moved here, it just didn´t feel right to speak German after so many years of speaking English.OPOL has worked really well with dd, but the less said abour ds the better.

Planatos That sounds really confusing. Do you still get a chance to speak Spanish?

outnumbered I hope you´ve soon got a house full of healthy children. I really hope it works out with the Kur.

I did a PEKIP course with dd and ds when they were small, which was quite enjoyable and a good way of meeting people. I also did baby massage with dd, but she hated it, so I didn´t bother with ds.

Hello to everyone I´ve missed. I better stop now or this will be mammoth.

antique there is an English speaking community in Hannover (yet to meet a fellow Brit... Although of course there is Admylin :o ) on Facebook and I think they have a children's group too... Must check that out, thanks for the tip!

Linzer I only noticed the virginal bit after you pointed it out and agree outnumbered that autocorrect is a pita! (Pain in the arse) but without it my German spelling in particular would be super awful...

More drama here from the PIL :( DP told me today what FIL (who is the main problem) asked while I was in the bedroom feeding DS on Sunday; FIL apparently wanted to know when they could come round, what day, how often etc - it seems he wanted some sort of schedule because they feel a bit "abgegrenzt" - can't think of a good English alternative... Denied/ held back / pushed away???
MIL rang today because they had something they wanted to bring us, but she wouldn't say what. DP agreed they could come over but first we were going out for our daily walk. They just wanted to pop in and drop their surprise off.
So DP rang when we were on our way home and they came straight over (40-45 minute drive) they brought us some food. They also gave DP some money for nappies. I do understand that this was a really lovely gesture, it is really kind of MIL to cook for us and very generous that they drove all the way to ours simply to bring us this gift.

I feel like a right shit, but them manipulating themselves another visit, when we had planned a chilled day for us, really made me and after DP told me what had been said at the weekend I was fuming. Of course when they arrived DS was feeding and then needed changing and of course there was poo everywhere! So while I was busy DP decided something needed to be said sooner rather than later (I feel awful because I had put pressure on DP to say something, even though I would have gladly said something myself DP was worried that I wouldn't have said it in a delicate way.... ).

So DP explained that everyone who has been to visit has been invited by us, nobody else has hassled us into a visit. We will see them, they will see their grandchild but we would like a bit of room. I was still changing DS when they left, they did come and say hello quickly (well MIL did) and I could hear FIL cutting off DP who is lovely and telling him that of course they won't come again unless they are invited.

I know that what they are doing is with the best intentions and I know that they will both be really hurt by what DP said. But I really hope the end result is that DP can be a bit more relaxed and is eventually less stressed!

Sorry for another PIL whinge :(

platanos I have been meaning to ask you if your dc are trilingual!

cheas how do you do Rotlicht with a toddler? even when ill, ds3 would not sit still for long enough - unless I did it while he is asleep I do have a Rotlicht though; I use it when I have sinusitis.
ds1 was a commando crawler, and a funny one too. he only commando crawled using his right arm and leg, lloking like a badly injured soldier. Actually, a mum at a toddler group I attended in the UK said he looked like a snail the way he commando crawled

I think my boobs are still the same size as before ds1. but they've always been small; the only time I had more than a B cup was during pregnancies and whilst breastfeeding. at your inverse boobs though! could it (partly) be at the way you were measured though? just wondering as when I had ds1 I kept getting mastitis. there was a lady who'd come to your house with a lovely selection of gorgeous breastfeeding bras and tops, and she's measure you properly. it turned out the nursing bras I had been using (measured and M&S) were completely the wrong size. I think the ones I had were 34C, and what the lady measured (and it really was the end of my mastitis after using her bras) 30E or 32DD!!!

weissdorn I lived in Cardiff for 2 years. I loved it there! the furthest north in Wales I got was St Davids - and that's not very far north. dh was in NOrth Wales a few times though and thought it was gorgeous. Where exactly are you from?

ploom glad the orthodontist went ok and I hope your dd will get used to it quickly.

linzer I am totally confused about all this kann/muss business too, and I am German! From when I was little I remember the deadline for a muss kind was 30th of June. I was pretty much the youngest in my year, as my birthday is 23rd of June. one of brothers' bdays is end of July - he was 7 when he started school. if parents wanted a child to start school early (i.e. it was not 6 before the end of June) they'd have to 'apply' for it. so I guess there wasnt really anything like a 'kann Kind' back then.

hupa thank you. dh just came home and said it's likely that someone else will be going to the states. so fingers crossed it wont be him.

ds2 is slightly better. no more fever, just raised temp. and no more throwing up slime. just lots of coughing and a foul mood . ds3 I will probably have to take to the docs in the morning. he hasnt really complained about earache since I gave him calpol this morning. although if I touch his ear, he pulls away. he is coughing loads and has a fever. apparently there's lots of pneumonia around atm so I want to have him checked over before the weekend. one of my brothers (I would have had 4) died as a tiny baby as the doc did not spot he had pneumonia, so I am always a bit paranoid.

nutella I really hope your PIL will understand your pov very soon! It's not fair on you and your dp.

oh dear nutella - that sounds tough. There may well be a "schedule" like FIL wants in the future. But, but, but .... ds is so so small, you and dp need some stress free time. And if both you and your dp are getting stressed about it all then it is good it was said right away. You may feel a bit rotten about it now, but I think it is best to be honest and straight with them.

I have my own little this evening. went to pick up dd1 from a friends - 6pm which is quite late for us, 25 mins walk away with a tired and tearful ds and a dd2 in a bad mood (dh had an evening thing at work). dd1 knew when we were coming and had been asked to get ready quickly when we came. Instead she is really cheeky, takes her over 30 mins to get dressed and when we get outside starts an immitation of my nagging "I told you to get ready when we came....." (perfect english though ) and was then cheeky all the way home. I was sooooo mad. and breathe....she's 10, it is going to get worse isn't it?

hupa it is confusing. No, I speak no Spanish to the children at the moment, though it does sometimes just slip out... I am hoping they will learn it though and it is on offer in gymnasium so there might be a chance.

linzer I share your confusion on the muss/kann kind business. what did dd1 say about her training today?

ploom glad you have the ordeal behind you....hope it is not painful for her. end of august birthday too...tut...

I think outnumbered gets the loudest tut from frau direktor...31st august? wish I had managed that one .

mrtumbles tis true that the difference in ages of the children is quite something, especialy when children develop so quickly at that point.

feelling a bit stressed - finding it hard to fit in work around taking dc for school tests, physio and speech therapist appointments, drs etc. time to go to bed me thinks. will all seem better in the morning .

platanos that would have made me mad too! And the mimicking I know from ds1, although sometimes I am not sure if it's on purpose (provocation) or not (echolalia). Either way, it's very irritation. Overall, ds1 is the master of provocations and I really hope we can sort out a few things before he hits puberty and gets physically stronger. In general they do say that boys are harder as young children, and girls harder work in the teenage years, don't they? We shall see...

What is your work platanos? I hope you get some rest now and feel better in the morning.

Just to dd to ds3' birthday on August 31: he was born at 10pm

Oh Nutella that does sound stressful - I am utterly convinced older people must have had their genuine memories of parenting young children and babies utterly erased (perhaps over written by the reconstructed versions they have told themselves over time), they so often seem so clueless it is almost impossible to believe they were also once parents of newborns, as so many new grandparents seem to see the arrival of grandchildren and everything thereafter as all about them... so weird!

We speak English as a family language btw - this seems to have worked really well so far, but we are living in a very rural location where nobody outside the house really speaks English to or around the children, friends, extended family on DH's side etc. are all German. DH speaks German to them if they have friends here, but I still speak English to my kids and German to their friends, which seems to be fine, and they speak German to me even in front of their friends - in general DD's friends find this interesting and positive but DS1's are a bit non plussed, but neither child has ever argued or complained about it. DD's teacher says nothing marks her out as speaking German as a second language - at Kindergarten they said she mixed her articles sometimes but that many children of Kindergarten age do, but if that was an issue it fixed itself by school. When DS1 started KiGa they questioned his level of German, but the problem was actually his extreme shyness with people he doesn't know and speaking in front of groups - this has more than respolved itself now and he has no language problems. In the UK nobody could tell the kids weren't English born and bred, so so far, so good :) Who knows if they'll refuse to speak English in their teens, but I hope not!

On the school start thing, it seems to be different in each state, but:

The cut off date here in Bavaria is 30th Sept.

Using this Sept as an example - all children born before 30th Sept 2007 and not already in school are Muss Kinder - they must start school on 13th Sept unless they have an exemption. The discrepancy between the date school starts and the cut off means a few children can be aged 5 when they start school, though only for 2 weeks.

Children born between October and December 2007 are Kann Kinder - if their parents want them to start school in Sept 2013 they can take some extra tests and may be allowed to start school early. Where we live this is viewed as a ludicrous and pushy thing to do, pretty much equated with robbing your child of a childhood and dooming them to failure on all sorts of levels, but this seems to be a rural attitude - in other areas I think it is common to send children as Kann Kinder.

If children are not ready for school they can sometimes get a year's grace - this mainly seems to be used for summer born children, but it doesn't seem especially unusual for children born as early as spring to be given an extra year in Kindergarten, if there is a reason - most common seems to be maturity. Where we live pretty much all summer born boys seem to be kept back, and about half summer born girls. DD has a boy born in April 2006 in her year - she was born Sept 2007, meaning the age spread is 17 months within one school year - if there had been any Kann Kinder in her class (which there aren't) there could have been an even wider age range in one school "year" - up to about 20 months.

So most school intakes will include 5 (nearly 6) year olds with children who have already turned 7, within the same year, because of the option of holding children back.

How easy it is to hold a child back is open to interpretation though - I initially was under the impression you merely have to state your intention as a parent, but it is definitely not that easy, and there are hoops to jump through and it is ultimately down to the school whether they go with the parent's wishes or insist a child starts school. The school can also insist a child waits a year against the parents wishes - that part I already knew, as there is a girl in DD's class whom this happened to, and it seemed to have worked well - she was very immature indeed at KiGa and seemed to have some very real problems (she was still not properly toilet trained at 5) but having stayed back a year she is now doing well at school by all accounts...

That is an essay, I will log off again, still not having properly replied to people or name checked! DS2 still has a cough but no longer seems ill and miserable with it, and I have an on and off sore throat and swollen tongue (:/) but I think I am just run down so shall just plod along and ignore it - one day I shall sleep through another night, and then a few in a row (of course what I mean is DS2 will) and then, a couple of week s- and then I will glow with health and well being for ever after :o

Outnumbered here in Bavaria the deadline used to be 30th June but that was changed relatively recently - it had certainly changed to Sept by the time my DD was old enough for school, in Sept 2011. I understand it they moved it by a month each year for 3 years and then it stopped at end of Sept. I have no idea why.

No that's really helpful MrTumbles, thank you :) I had not heard of Kann-kinder and Muss-kinder before, but it makes sense.

DS is not bilingual (yet!), so I think that it would be good for him to have a couple of years of Kiga before school really starts anyway. Plus although he is bright he is quite sensitive and I hear that school is quite rigorous? I think I'd be happier if he was a little more robust and at almost 7 I think that is more likely than at not quite 6 :)

It sounds like a good system to me - meaning DC move up to school when they are ready rather than some arbitrary age. I suppose the later starting age makes this easier to work out, too - it would be difficult IMO to judge whether a four year old is ready for school or not, but at 5/6/7 you have more idea really.

Yes platanos I do feel it was best to say something now rather than let it become a bigger issue than it needs to be. I'm also sure once we have more routine and he feeds less often they can take him for a walk or whatever they want; but really, what do they expect at 3 weeks old?
outnumbered I feel it's especially unfair on DP because of course FIL knows exactly what buttons to push :(

platanos your DD sounds like a cheeky madam which I never was and oh dear, does 10 count as a tweenie these days?

outnumbered totally agree with your bra measuring experience! When I went to get some cosy pregnancy bras the woman was determined to take me up a couple of back sizes and down a couple of cup sizes which left me with an awful fit. I was so stressed out by it & I kept telling her they were wrong. In the end I didn't buy any but I was so annoyed to have wasted so much time and energy! I did eventually buy a maternity/BF bra from a local maternity shop (incredibly expensive) but it is soooo cosy I now have three from the same brand :o

Really hope your DSs get better quickly! My younger brother used to always get earache, I can remember him waking in the middle of the night screaming when it was bad. Nothing wrong with being paranoid, being a brand new parent of a PFB I'm surprised we haven't been to the Dr more often

:o at all the "family planning" fails and August born DCs! My nephew is also a 31.8. Birthday boy and I think he started school (well, reception) when he had just turned 4 !

The worst thing, in relation to DS1 starting school, is that I had an elective c-section with him at 38 weeks for various reasons related to the mess that was DD's delivery - I made the decision after much agonising and mid changing, but in blissful ignorance of the fact that by having him at 38 weeks I was condemning him to being a 2013 Muss Kind - if I had waited to go into spontaneous labour he would almost certainly have been born in October (DD was induced at 42 weeks) and therefore an automatic 2014 school starter, without all the fence sitting and having to make a decision that may or may not be the right one on his behalf :(

Another oddity is that as both my elder 2 have Sept birthdays and are 24 months apart, they could be 1, 2 or 3 school years apart - one if I had kept DD back but not DS, 2 if both started in their automatic school year or were both kept back, 3 if, as planned I hold only Ds1 back...

Morning!! Will try to post properly later but mrtumbles post caught my eye - your dc have 24 months between them but will be 3 years apart at school. My ds's have 22 months between them and are only 1 year apart at school!! Crazy how it works .

Me and db1 are 21months apart and he was 1 school year ahead of me. Db2 and I are 25 months apart and I was 3 school years ahead if him. :)

A 24 month gap would almost always mean two years apart at school here. However, a friend of mine has three DC with age gaps of 19 and 14 months; her oldest two will be in the same school year - her oldest is in the preschool class atm - and the youngest in the year below. (The middle one's birthday is at the end of August so if she'd been five days younger, she would have been in the same school year as the youngest).

I'm quite impressed by her managing to have three DC at primary school at the same time for three whole years. Mine are all only two years apart, but by the time DS started school, DD1 had already moved up to middle school.

outnumbered I was comparing pre- and post pregnancy sizes. I was never measured while bf & wonder now whether that contributed to all the nasty lumps etc.

I had no idea the school year was so complicated! Ds has a mid-Sept birthday which I think will make him one of the oldest in the year here in Hessen, but I'm not sure
hupa does that sound right to you? I have ko idea what year he will start school but should probably find out.

Posting & running this morning as we need to get ready for playgroup. I'll ppp back later to catch up & namecheck

Antique I guess it means that he can either be one of the oldest in the year, or start a year previously and be one of the youngest. Or if there is cause to think he is not ready you could hold him back and he would be one of the very oldest, the year after.

My boobs are bigger than before pregnancy, but I have breastfed for four years so perhaps that made them bigger. My mum said the same though - she was an A before, C during pregnancy/BF and a B ever after. I'd be happy with staying a B.

That didn't work for me, Bertie - was four years for one child and have you stopped bfing now? I bfed for around 5 years altogether, but with two breaks of about a year. Like Antique, I've dropped a couple of cup sizes post-DC - although my rib cage seems to have expanded and I now find a 34 more comfortable than a 32 (although I was measured as still being a 32).

I've just started doing my tax return which, although quite straightforward, is so fiddly and time-consuming. The reminder to do it keeps popping up on my phone and annoying me, so I'll be glad to have it out of the way.

Antique The cut of date in Hessen is June 30th. That means your ds will start school just before his 7th birthday if he starts as a muss Kind. There´s more information here.

Planatos Our dd is also 10 and she´s usually lovely, but when she´s tired we definitely get a glimpse of the teenager she could become. Maybe admylin can reassure us that not all teenagers are a nightmare - she says hopefully.

Nutella as you say it will be brillant when your ds is older to have willing babysitters on hand, but at 3 weeks you really just need time to get used to parenthood. Hopefully they´ll be understanding and as MrTumbles says, they have obviously forgotten what the first few weeks are like and are just excited and want to be involved and are forgetting about your feelings in all their excitement.

The dcs are having a rodeln day today. All lessons are cancelled and all the classes are spreading themselves around the town on various hills with their Bobs and Popo Rutscher. I´m sure the dc will have fun, but I don´t envy the teachers having to stand around in the cold. I´ve also warned dh that there could be more Schulunfälle than usual this morning.

Linzer I don´t envy you do the tax return - is it ususally quite straightforward?

Well as far as bra sizes go I went fromm a tiny 34AA to a still tiny, but a teeny bit bigger 34A after children. It was just as well because AA bras are virtually impossible to find here.