Die Kaffeestube Teil 2 - virtual Kaffeeklatsch in Germany and Austria

[cheaspicks]

Chat for those living in a German-speaking country, or anyone else who is interested.

admilyn - no way jose! we'll be moving out of Köpenick within the next 2 years. We hope to be nicely settled in a lovely (yet reasonably priced) new home at least a year before the munchkin starts school. We're already checking out areas, prices, neighborhoods, etc... as we don't want to be unpleasantly surprised like we were when we moved here from F-hain.

*on a side note: I've just stalked your profile...your kids are absolute stunners!

Well said world! I agree and when I was at the Turkish family home the dad who has been here 40 years said, in broken German, you can't imagine how bad it was at first, they didn't even have aubergine and fladenbrot in the shops!! I had to try not to laugh too much and then he did say it's much better now but only because they have their own shops!

awesome One of my friends here has found a kind of "substitute Oma" for her DC and it's worked out really well (I think she just met her by chance somewhere, she's not an "official" Leihoma); she does loads with her oldest DD. Good luck with your search!

Ploom You just feel like a chauffeur some days, don't you? DD2 wants to go to Mädchen-Turnen, which is in town so the parking is a nightmare. Plus it's from 5 to 6.30, which is really a bit late as she still needs to eat when she comes home (she went yesterday and we weren't home till gone 7 pm; she was very grumpy this morning). But it's the only thing she wants to do apart from piano, so I don't really want to say no.

admylin My parents don't visit either, but it's probably easier that way - they don't really enjoy travelling. My ILs are much closer but would never come to stay overnight; if they visit, it's only ever for a morning. Wrt running shoes, it's not long since I finally threw away a pair of trainers that I'd had since school and bought myself some decent shoes!

Oh I made mistakes, hope my post is still readable.

Thanks admylin

You know Germany was a very different place to what it is now. Lots of folks from all over the world and all the travel experiences Germans have brought with them have literally transformed this country.

Germany weren't even so intolerant of other cultures or religions. they actually didn't even care.

What Germans couldn't stand then, were things which they have perceived to be so noisy and a disturbance of their Ruhezeiten, for example.

world I absolutely agree that a certain amount of blending in with your new country is important, "when in Rome" & all that ...but what if you have done an "honest self-check" and all is well?

I look like a stereotypical German: blonde hair, blue eyes, pale complexion (but with an always smiling face) - I speak German - I married a German - my child was born here so is also German - my dog is German - I am polite & pleasant - I have 2 businesses with bilingual websites/service & pay all of my German taxes & bills promptly...

Yet, in the 4 years I have been living in Germany I have been treated rudely on a near daily basis: everything from the typical German heavy sigh & eye roll for no apparent reason to being shoved with shopping carts while waiting in line to my lovely dog poo tale.

I've accepted the fact that living in Berlin means dealing with the above crap every day. It saddens me that rudeness/coldness seem to be an integral part of German culture.

I have lived in Tokyo, Japan (6yrs), Kerkyra,Greece (4yrs), London,England (2yrs) and in my experiences as a 'world-liver' I found the Japanese to be the friendliest & most welcoming followed by the Brits, then the Greeks, which unfortunately leaves the Germans sorely lacking in smiley faces.

My husband claims that a lot of Berliners are still suspicious of foreigners and no matter how good my language skills are it will always take time for them to feel comfortable enough to chat with me... 3 months of attending the same Krabbelgruppe twice a week and taking home-baked treats to every meet-up (which everyone ate but never once said 'Danke') and I'm just now being occasionally included in the eltern-small-talk. Humph!

-Sorry for the bit-of-a-rant =O

What's your advice (as a German) on how to fit in better and be treated decently?

That was a great post world - I really feel that if you choose to go and live in a different country then you have to make a decent attempt to integrate into the ways of that country - doesnt mean you cant have a moan about how things drive you quietly mad but you still have to overall like the ways here.
but what about situations like awesome's - she is doing her best to integrate but is still treated differently cause she's foreign. I think its really sad that the tolerance of some locals in big cities towards all foreigners is tainted by their experience of the ones who wont integrate.

And arent we really all immigrants if we go back a few generations??

Immigrants even in our home country I mean.

awsome imagine not looking like a stereotypical German! That is dh's daily problem! He's constantly mistaken for the cleaner/delivery boy or whatever! Only when he puts on his white coat or waves his Dr title around doe she get respect. Of course, that makes him even more fed up so he refuses to wear his white coat in hospital unles she has to as it sort of brings out the hypocrite in people and he hates that!

ploom I think there's a lot of germanic blood in our mix on the British isles!! I've got Swiss (Zurich) ancestors so I was almost returning to my roots when I went to Swabia!

It's sometimes difficult to tell how much being treated rudely is to do with being a foreigner and to what extent it's just the way that people are. On virtually all the occasions when I was treated rudely, I don't think I'd said enough for people to realise I wasn't German. DH encountered similar attitudes, although obviously Austrians aren't Germans and people definitely treated him differently (I've mentioned before, I think, that other car drivers were far more impatient with us when we had Austrian number plates than when we had German ones).

awesome How rude of the other mothers not to even say thank you for the treats. I can't say that I've ever been excluded for being foreign although, looking back, I always socialised more with other foreigners when I was living in Germany (with other au pairs when I was an au pair and with other expat colleagues when I was working in Germany, who I just felt were more on my wavelength).

admylin Yes, I think not looking like a stereotypical Austrian can be a huge problem here too. DS's KiGa English teacher said the children wanted to touch his skin as they'd never seen anyone his colour before - but I'm sure he also encountered far worse (going by what I've heard about others who look "different").

Ok, I don't have time to write a long post, but I'm going to stick my neck out and say I don't find Germans generally rude.

It is polite in Britain to pretend other people do not exist unless they are in a contact position (ie. customer service role, person you have an appt with, friend, etc.). That's why we don't strike up conversations on public transport and despise people who ask celebrities on the street for their autograph. This is not the case in Germany. If I go into the dr's waiting room and don't say hello, I am being rude. If there are older kids breaking glass bottles at the park, then it is my social responsibilty to tell them off and make sure they dispose of the broken glass. Yes, admylin should have shouted at the cyclist on the pavement.

Of course some people take it too far (there are rude individuals and cities everywhere). Awesome's verbal attacker thoroughly deserved that bag of poo. Plenty of other dog walkers, however, leave poo on the pavement - the town where I live is full of it. Is it really better to complain to one's frends about it, or write to the local paper or say something directly to the dog walker?

Linzer

Personally my attitude is very much along the lines of

It doesn't matter if I am being singled out and treated rudely due to being perceived as a foreigner or due to other animosities. Fact is I am being treated in a way I don't like.

So, I focus on the ill-mannered behaviour or the rudeness towards me and look at the situation and see the person as that individual person being whatever.

Does that make sense?

Re. awesome's Krabbelgruppe, there are plenty of "AIBU to hate toddler groups" threads complaining about cliquey mums who won't talk to newcomers at presumably British groups. Not that that makes it ok - I found it incredibly hard making proper mum friends when dd was a baby, mainly because I was part of a clique where no-one made a real effort to contact me outside of our regular meet-ups. It wasn't until they all went back to work that I met people I really gelled with and who I felt I could call up to go for a walk with, etc.

Oh I forgot to add to my post before - I've been treated with nothing but interest and kindness by the Germans in my village - but is that because there are only 2 foreigners who live here? I really do live in the back end of nowhere. The only rudeness I see routinely is in shops & peoples lack of desire to wait in a queue and thats nothing to do with me not being German. But in our next biggest town there is a small Russian community and there is definitely a feeling of prejudice towards them that I've never felt towards me.

The dc are all playing really nicely this morning - given me plenty of time to get on with reading "the god delusion". It really requires proper concentration unlike the fluffier chick lit books that I normally read .

One example I can think of right now is the thing with when do you apologise when getting too close to another person?

When I was new in the U.S. it was typical to hear people around me saying 'Sorry' or Excuse me' when passing me.
And I couldn't figure out why all these people were smiling at me and apologising????
So, I noticed it was every time when standing in an aisle or something along those lines, and there was at least 1 metre between us and they felt like apologising.
I was so annoyed as I thought they are making such a big fuss of nothing, but then I realised how rude they must think I am by not doing this and sort of falling out of these social norms when approaching another person.
So, I started doing it myself, it was so hard, I felt embarrassed and like a fool, but after a while, well years I somehow adapted to them and when back in Germany I was infuriated about all the ill-mannered and rude behaviour bumbing into me, cutting into the queue, not apologising etc.
It was a weird bodily feeling, truly physical sensations of being infuriated and it took me almost two years to adjust to this reverse culture shock and I am now sort of the middle ground.

Yes, that does make sense world. Personally, I don't think that any of my negative experiences were to do with me not being German.

cheas I now feel very rude if I walk into a doctor's surgery etc. back in the UK and don't say hello to everyone (DH did it once at the dentist's and said that everyone just looked at him like this ). I personally quite like the way that you say goodbye to everyone here - whether it's someone sitting at the next table to you in a cafe (even if you haven't spoken to them) or other people in a lift - and I have to stop myself doing so in the UK!

I've also read plenty of AIBUs about school gate cliques and the like (in the UK) and have never experienced anything like that here. And the "looking over your shoulder to see if there's anyone more interesting to talk to and disappearing as soon as there is" is something I've come across in the UK but never here. I always used to think of the UK as being far friendlier (and most people do seem to make more of an effort with small talk than the Austrians) but quite often now I'll go back and think "that would never happen in Austria".

cheaspicks As I always have some extra poop-pick-up bags on hand I simply offer one (with a smile) to people who don't appear "equipped" to scoop their dog's leavings - rarely is it taken =o(

Unfortunately a lot of dog owners think that poop-patrol is included in the dog tax we owners must pay & therefore don't feel obliged to clean up after their pooch.

-my Krabbelgruppe is all German, except me...but I'm persevering! *Last week, when asked (again) what country I was from, I was told that Canada was "nicht so schlecht" (- a weird compliment perhaps?) I laughed and replied "Deutschland, auch!" and actually got a grin from one of the Köpenicker Mamas!

Sorry for being out of the loop...but...erm...what is an AIBU?

I used to enjoy winding-up people behind me in a queue by not moving forward and letting a bit of a gap develop. Hilarious when they actually bump into you because they instinctively expect you to move forwards every 15 secs or so . It's only "rude", though, by our British/Anglo-Saxon standards (how rude is it that I still think people standing uncomfortably close to me in a queue must be trying to pickpocket me?)

AIBU = Am I Being Unreasonable, one of the sections on here that's fairly well known for attracting posters with forthright opinions. It's not for the fainthearted (like me). I posted on there once (fairly innocuously, I thought) and was so annoyed about someone having a go at me (quite politely in AIBU terms, but no one would ever speak to you like that in real life) that I've stuck to "safer" topics ever since!

And yes, maybe she was saying "nicht so schlecht" in an admiring kind of way. "Nicht schlecht" is definitely used as a compliment here.

What do you think of yourself as, world? I'd assumed you were German, but now you've mentioned your Mediterranean heritage and you keep referring to Germans as "them". Maybe the clue is in your nickname...

awesome I am sorry to hear about the 'Krabbelgruppe' experience and you brought this example to my attention, which this time did not make me laugh. It is another of these spot-on descriptions and yet I cannot laugh about it at all like all the others you have all shared. It makes me and sometimes even and also makes me want to shake some niceness into others.

Generally speaking and I am trying to say this kindly, Germans are not known for their generous hospitality in regards to food and beverages. Especially not food.
I hear this over and over again about simply accepting the baked goods of others and mostly not even being able to be thankful or praise and even worse not even to reciprocate.
I'd say the general attitude will be (deep inside) well we didn't ask her do all that, well I have no intention do reciprocate so should she continue to do that it's her thing etc. It is awful I know.

There could be even the element of should you be kind and warm and share your goods and after doing this once or twice and you see there is no appreciation, simply stop doing it OR continue should you enjoy it for your own sake and make your behaviour completely separate form others' reaction. Do not expect praise, not thanks and no reciprocation.
In fact, in the social hierarchy you might find yourself 'rising up the ranks' when showing some social distance.
The Anglo-Saxon friendliness very often in Germany could get misunderstood as trying too hard, being too accommodating and unfortunately makes you something like a 'Fußabtreter' others have not much respect for.
The Anglo-Saxon way of apologising out of care for others, is something the typical average German Hans and Helga might misunderstand as an invite to have a go at you in return.

Wow I'm sorry to have missed all the interesting chat today!

Just my musings on what I have read of today's conversation, I would say that I have not been singled out in any way in Germany because I am a "foreigner". I have blond hair and brown eyes with fair skin, and wouldn't stand out in a crowd (until I speak!). I have certainly found everyone in my village very welcoming - like Ploom I live in a small community and have found it welcoming.

It would certainly be perceived as rude (of me) to walk past someone in the the street and not say hello, etc.

I think sometimes the rudeness which I perceive (particularly in the restaurant) is simply because in the UK we go overboard in the other direction: "would it be ok if I...." "could I possibly please....." "if its alright with you would you mind if I...." which is silly in itself if you think about it. So when someone simply asks me "ein Bier" I perceive them as being rude, when in fact they are simply being direct, or sometimes the "please" is implied eg "Ich hätte gerne" or "ich möchte".

However, one caveat - I've met sooooo many downright rude older people. Even DH comments on it - they demand respect without earning it and the way I am expected to kowtow sometimes really pees me off!

So, IL update: they have left and I felt really bad because my MIL said "sind wir dir auf den Wecker gegangen?" ie did we annoy you? I checked with DH what she meant and that I wasn't rude or anything and he reassures me this is just something one says, without necessarily meaning that the other person has seemed irritated. I really hope it was ok - seemed ok to me

Wow, long post! I'll leave it there for now :)