DH thinks that I am not cut out for living overseas.....advice please

[Solola]

We?ve been married ten years and one of the things that first attracted us to one another when we met was our shared dream of living in Spain one day. We had a heart to heart chat last night about whether this dream could become a reality and he said the only thing holding him back is that he is not sure if I could cope with living abroad.

When we met we were both living and working in a country (USA) that neither of us are native to. I?m English; he is from a Latin American country. He?d been there for 9 years and I just spent 1 year there.

We?ve lived in England all our married life and we have now got 3 children now age 5,3, and 18 months. We?ve kept postponing our move to Spain for various reasons. Firstly we wanted to wait until my DH got citizenship, and then we had our three children really close together and I wanted to be around my family and friends during that time.

Before having children I was fearless, I did human rights work which took me to many dangerous situations and countries. However, I found that having children opened up a vulnerable side to me that I wasn?t aware of and has made me want to stay closer to family and the wider support network that I?ve relied on a lot in these early years of motherhood. I?ve had quite bad postnatal depression (enough to go on antidepressants, though coming off them slowly now my youngest is 1.5 years).

DH has seen how I have relied on my family and friends so much in the past few years and he worries that I will be lonely and not settle in a foreign culture. He is much more adaptable than me, he?s not lived permanently in his native country since he was 18 and has experienced living and settling in other cultures. I think he?d thrive and love living in Spain. The only thing holding him back is his concern that I am not strong enough emotionally to make the move.

I would also love to live in Spain but I have to agree with him that I am not sure if I am strong enough emotionally to make the move. Although I?ve travelled a lot, I?ve only actually lived abroad for 1 year and I feel like I was a very different person then.

The main thing that that scares me is that if we were to go it would have to be a permanent, forever thing. If we gave up work and our house (we own 50% share in our home via housing association so we can?t rent it out while we go over for a trial period) we would have nothing to fall back on if it didn?t work.

Why do I want to live in Spain?
-So that the children can learn to speak Spanish fluently and therefore access their cultural heritage (none of husband?s family speak English).
-Close enough that we can easily see my family regularly (would take my parents no longer to visit us from Kent than it does to visit my sister in Liverpool)
-Wonderful climate so chance for more active, outdoor, life style
-I?d get fully bilingual (do already speak Spanish but room for improvement)
-You only get one life and want to live it to the full, not held back by fears or ?what ifs?
-For husbands sake, there is a part of him that is repressed here in UK which he feels comes alive in Spain (and I have seen that when on holiday there).

Why don?t I?
-May never be able to come back as we don?t own property here
-Worry about not being able to make a community of friends
-Isolation
-Damage the children by moving, I suspect one of my 3 children may need extra support and have special needs and I think I could understand the systems better here.
-What if I get depressed again, no support network
-Spain in recession right now, more risky than UK

I?d appreciate any comments, advice on this. If you?ve moved to live overseas with small children, what are the hardest parts, the things that have pushed you to breaking point? What are the joys?

I have traveled a lot and lived abroad until recently but came back. Travelling and living in a country is completely different. I found living abroad something i loved and hated depended on when you spoke to me. And now I am back here I miss it horribly and am so relieved I am here with equal measure. Its a difficult to describe whirlwind of emotion. The thing I found so very difficult was the lack of support in all ways. I became very dependent on my family (DH and children) and local expat friends who were the only people who really understood my whirlwind of emotion. My family took the view I was on a preferment holiday; I wish I was doing 70 hours weeks. And when and if, because they didn't come often, expected me to drop everything and have a holiday with them. When I came to the UK the guilt that was dumped on us was incredible. When the summer came and life was good it was amazing but it was a hard life and very lonely to start with.
Spain is going through a massive ressession and Spanish people are finding it hard and it is very like Italy (where I was) in the sense that work is given to family and then friends. How would you survive if you didn't have work? I can only speak of Italy but they are very similar societies in the sense the family are suppose to help but if you have no family there what would you do?
also think carefully about the schooling. Finance and schooling where the 2 reasons we came back. The schools in Italy are very poorly financed and often with teachers training very many years ago. We lived in a very provincial part of Italy so there was huge institutional racism even directed to my children, so god help the Africans.
I sound very negative but these are things I'd wish I known before I left. It probably wouldn't have changed our decision but made us better prepared and probably we would have done things a little differently.

I live in the US so culturally different. If your Dh wants small community then could you find a town/city with a family suburb? That could give you the local community but also a wider population for ex pat things. I would also think more chance o f TEFL jobs.

We have a flat in the UK but it is a bit if a pita. Ties up our capital and would be hard work to sell it and transfer the money over here. If you don't have a house in the UK you could move back and rent or stay with family so you are still able to return.

Can you start putting things in place to get used to the idea of moving? Speaking spanish, visit the area etc.

There is no ideal time for the kids. They will deal with it in their own way.

Solola, has your DH ever lived in Spain? If not, I do really feel that he may be buying into an idea of similarities with his own country that are superficial in the same way that the US and the UK are just not the same country. As he has been a longterm nomad, has he really given up the things you feel he has to be in the UK? He's not lived in his own country since he was 18; would he not have moved on in any case?

I'm sure that having children has highlighted some of the bicultural aspects of your marriage, and the need for roots which it tends to emphasise in all of us. I also understand your desire for a compromise but between what and what? Fundamentally, he isn't Spanish. He could find Spain a deeply unsatisfying place to live (esp given the economic situation) if he imagines it will be like home - or that he won't be treated like a foreigner. He will!

There seem to be a lot of expectations and assumptions resting on a potential move to Spain. I think you need some very open conversations about what you would both be expecting to gain - and give up.

Happy chappy the racism issue is something that we have wondered about. Not much racism towards latin american immigrants in UK but that is because there are not that many latinos here (in comparison to people from other countries). But in Spain, we have seen that this is very different and I have wondered about that.

tribpot, no he has never lived in Spain. I think there is some sentimentality there with regard to the 'old country', much as American's can feel about Ireland/Scotland or wherever they have ancestral heritage.

Has has said that he would be happy to stay in the UK and he could reconcile himself to settling here permanently. I too can imagine a future here, I just wonder if both of us would regret not following our dreams.

Lots of people have said that it is hard, difficult, tough, challenging, lonely. I think that he could manage that. Just not sure about me.

Does it have to be now? There are things I want to do in my life that I am waiting until dd is 18 and off to college before I do them. It sounds like the timing just isn't great right now.

I've lived in Belgium since before having children so my dcs (now aged 23, 21 and 12) were all born here. I have a mix of Belgian and English-speaking friends but still, despite having no problems speaking French, feel more comfortable with my English-speaking friends. There is also the BCT here (like the NCT) which was a god-send when the boys were little as, as it would appear from comments above in Spain, the Belgians (or at least those who live in Brussels) all tend to go back to work after maternity leave. If you move to an area that has that kind of support group then it will be much easier than if you do not. One thing that I continue to find hard is that my parents have been deprived of so much of my children's lives. My db lives just round the corner and my dm often talks about things she did with his children. I find myself wishing she could do that with mine. I also feel that I have missed out on much of my parents' and brother and family's lives. To be able to pop round and see my dm whenever I fancied would be so good.

It would be hard for me to go back after all these years here but there are definitely disadvantages to living over here despite, as you put it, it being "my" continent with easy access to the UK.

A fairly random two cents: in terms of whether or not it is easier to move big or small kids: it's hard to move kids, whenever, depending on your kids, once they're not babies. We just moved to Australia when DS was 1.5 and DD was 3.5. She is still homesick. I don't doubt that the duration of her homesickness will be shorter but the intensity of it is the same as any other person. And, also, this is with two parents who are very positive about the move and tons of family support in Australia. Kids can pick up on yourmisgivings and if you are not 100% enthused OR having a hard time when you are there they will notice and it will have an impact.

I've also lived abroad since I finished university, and I can tell you from personal experience just because you are linguistically fluent it doesn't mean a place will be culturally comfortable...

It doesn't have to be 'now', esp with the jobs market so appalling and with the lack of toddler groups etc there.
Why not just visit as often as you can during the holidays over the next few years? Not in a touring around sense, but in picking one or two places that you might consider moving to one day, and then renting a small house there for one week, two weeks... And then going back there for another week or two next time you can... Seeing if you can meet people / talk to locals about work, housing / decide if you might like it and if it might be feasible economically. There is no rush.

So you want to move to Spain based on the fact that your dh speaks Spanish. What if he wanted you to move back to South America for the same reasons? Apart from the distance from the UK, is there anything that would hold you back? Because if so then you need to think carefully about your real reasons, and your real possibilities.

Just because somewhere is closer to the UK doesn't mean that people will visit more or that you will be able to visit them more. Yes, Spain is only a two hour flight, but in truth while people commit to visiting regularly this is rarely achieved. Once, twice, and then the novelty wears off and people have their own lives to lead and other commitments for the little holiday time they have. And if you're not working or working in lower paid jobs you're not necessarily going to have the financial ability to be able to fly home on a wim.

Ime most people who move abroad end up making friends with other expats - people you have things in common with, and if you're going to be moving to a more remote part of the country there is going to be less opportunity to meet those people with whom you have something in common.

And just because your dh speaks Spanish doesn't mean he is going to be accepted as a Spaniard, he will still be a foreigner living in a foreign country, it's a bit like moving to Australia and expecting to be seen as Australian because you speak English - it just doesn't work like that.

And if your support network is important to you then this shouldn't be underestimated. It is hard moving away from all family and friends, doubly so when you're moving into a different culture and you have no-one to fall back on in case of an emergency.

I grew up abroad and I would go and live in another country in a heartbeat (circumstances permitting), but it is IMO something which shouldn't be entered into lightly, and even if you are most committed to doing it, the pitfalls should not be underestimated.

I've just taken a page full of notes from all this advice to think and ponder over.

Your replies are confirming that (for me) rural = bad idea.

I don't think DH would expect to be embraced like a Spaniard. He actually likes being a 'foreigner', as it has its advantages too. You can get away with a lot that a native can't, breaking certain cultural norms etc. We have both used that to our advantage when in other countries. When I'm in his country, I usually do what all the other women do, clear up after the men following a meal and washing dishes etc while the men chat. But sometimes I don't and I sit and talk and joke with the men, knowing that I won't get as harshly judged for this as the other women would.

Someone asked whether we would consider moving back to South America. This is also something that we have considered. Our reasons for not going there are:

1. Cost - it costs us a quarter of our annual income for us to visit there as a family of 5 from UK. Earning in local currency there, we would never be able to come and visit UK, also cost would prohibit anyone from visiting us there too.
2. Where DH family live is in one of the roughest parts of one of the most dangerous cities in the world. We have the choice not to bring up our children there and we are grateful.
3. DH has complicated relationship with his family and is quite glad to keep his distance from family disputes etc. Out of the 2 of us, it is actually me who would be happier to move there. The main reason being that we have an existing friendship group there and I am very close to one of his sisters who lived with us here in UK for a year.

We haven't ruled out spending time out there in the future though, once we are financially in a place where we can build up a lot of savings to rely on out there.

Regarding homesickness and roary's little daughter. That brought back to me how very homesick I was when we moved (from Lancashire to Yorkshire!) when I was 7. I would cry every night and my parents reaction soon moved from compassion to frustration. I agree with you that it is vital not to underestimate the intensity with which children feel these things.

Santiago is understand, boom town as far as wages are concerned. All of south America is booming right now, some places more than others though.

Is he actually brazilian? I'm thinking Sao paulo for some reason, if yes - what about Senegal for a fast buck?

(I do know Brazil is not Spanish speaking... Just the way you described his home country made me wonder.)

No it is actually Guatemala. I don't know if anyone watched that series (Channel 4 I think) on 'the worst place to be a (insert job title here)'? well Guatemala City was the 'worst place to be a paramedic' because of the high rate of shootings, gang crime and general violence in the city.

See this link an article describing the murder of more than 5000 women over the last ten years (nearly all of these being in the capital city, where DH family live). There are many more men murdered than women.

I saw that documentary i think. The guy who he was with lived in a gated community and the wife would take off her jewellery when she went shopping.

My OH is argentine and luckily comes from a sleepy town by the beach. But Guatemala looked beautiful (looking past the shootings/rapes/murders!)

You both sound very settled here in the UK. Let us know what you decide x

Hi Solola,
I have lived in Spain for almost 6 years and I only wish I had known about Mumsnet before I moved here so that I could have asked for some advice. For me it has been the worst decision of my life to come and live here. I am married to a Spaniard and have had 2 children who were born here. The language has never been a problem as I did my degree in Spanish. I had spent a lot of time visiting Spain before I moved here and thought I known the country, culture and people well.
I suppose for me the fact that I have children has made all the difference. Little did I know how much my priorities would change and how much I would need my family and friends close by, I just didn´t realise until it was too late. Yes I have made a few friends here but they are all ex-pats and I have found it virtually impossible to integrate with Spanish people and I live in a big city where you would think people are more open-minded and used to foreigners.
Maybe it´s different for me as I don´t like being a foreigner, I just can´t shake the feeling that I am always going to be an outsider no matter what, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.
For me it hasn´t made any difference that I am only a 2 hr flight away from being back home in the UK, and on bad days I feel I may aswell be a million miles away.
Spain isn´t the sunny paradise its cracked up to be, even more so now with the "crisis", and the UK has so much more going for it than most of us realise, and the grass certainly isn´t greener.
I also have a December born child and sending him to school full time at the age of 2 and 9 months was a killer for me. Yes he is totally settled and happy now but I´d be lieing if I said I´m convinced it was the right decision.
Sorry to sound so miserable about it all, I´d just like you to consider everything properly, which I´m sure you will. My DH was also quite happy living in the UK and that´s what makes it even more ironic.

SucksToBeMe, yes Guatemala is breathtakingly beautiful and very child friendly in many ways. Just not in others. I have to take off any jewelry and even my prescription glasses when we use public transport. All our friends and family have experienced car jackings. We just don't feel we could live our lives trapped in a gated community.

peterpie thanks for your post. I too wish that I had discovered mumsnet 5 years ago, would have made a big difference when struggling with breastfeeding and PND I think. I really appreciate your being honest about your experience of life as a mother in Spain. It sounds like you couldn't have been more prepared for going there yet you have still found it difficult. Is there no way that you could return to the UK is your DH is open to it?

I have family in south america. They tell me that hundreds of immigrants are leaving spain and going back there due to lack of work. All sorts of workers, professional and non professional.

Could you maybe plan the following: You stay in the UK with your children, DH resigns from his job or takes a long leave and goes to Spain for a 3 month trial to see if he gets work, a decent place to live, etc. If all goes well you all move, otherwise, DH comes back and finds a job here.

I have a child with special needs, and I would seriously look into what help you would get there before moving. I believe they are extremely advanced with special education, but I have no idea what access you can get to that education for free.

I feel compelled to post, even though I hate posting from my phone.

I lhave lived overseas with a toddler, it's bloody hard. We did it because it wad a good opportunity, financially great, accommodation was provided.

So with all the financial and housing stress out of the equation, it was still bloody hard.

I'm a very resilient, independent person who moved around from a young age, with family scattered all over. But living overseas with toddlers wad one of the hardest challenges I have had to face. There wad lots in it for us, and it wad worth it.

What rewards are you going to get?

I'm not saying don't be adventurous, but maybe wait until your little one is of school age.

Every posting I've been on it wad always the people with older, school age children who were the happpiest.

justonemorethread, thankyou for your response. What was it about living overseas with toddlers that you found so hard? Was it the lack of opportunity to meet other mums?

Do you think the school aged children families are happiest in your experience because there is a ready made school community to slot into?

Planning to show DH this thread tomorrow night, so if anyone has anything to add, please feel free to keep posting!

Just had a day rushing around to make a hospital appointment, relying on 2 different friends to look after and pick up my younger children. Made me realize how lucky I am to have that kind of support available at the drop of a hat.

OH, sorry only have my phone and dashing around day today, will try to write tonight!

Not Spain, but we moved to France nearly 6 years ago. DD was just 9 at the time.

Before we left the UK, she had visited France in total about 20 times - 2 week holidays, long weekends, even a couple of 2 day trips. However, I think she has a bent for languages - at 2 she could recognise spoken French, as 'not-English' and from memory I think she could recognise it as being French.

Family support - we didn't have any in the UK, so from that point of view, it didn't really make much difference.

We live in a village of 1000 people, and the only public transport is 1 bus about 6.30am out, and 1 back in the evening, Mon-Fri, term-time only. The nearest railway station is 10-12 miles away to the north, with an infrequent service to the regional capital, and from there to Paris, and to the local préfecture 20 km south of where we live.

Financially, we've been screwed by the £/? exchange rate. Although we were very lucky, dh was nearing retirement, and we calculated on using the equity released from the sale of our house to finance the house purchase and any necessary work required, and living expenses until he was 60 - 2 years ago when he was able to draw a reduced pension. Our income see-saws between ?1450 and ?1700 pcm, and it's tough as we spend a fortune on diesel. We don't get any sort of child benefit, it starts for 2 children in France, and our basic bills come to about ?700 a month before food, clothes, diesel, and dd's fees as a weekly boarder - she is now 14 and about to go to lycée.

I've been looking for work seriously for 2 1/2 years, and I've obtained a 2-week unpaid work experience. I've worked in accounts, and IT so it doesn't matter what package a business uses, I can get to grips with it fairly easily. I've been on free courses provided by the job centre. Perhaps 4 or 5 interviews, some of whom haven't replied to me. I think if I'd known about the 'crise' I would have abandoned dh to the plumbers, and looked sooner. My spoken French is good - good enough for psychotherapy in French, and I read entirely in French, so it's not language skills that are the problem.

I think the idea upthread about your dh going over on his own to have a look is a good idea.

Also, we found out a terrific amount from the expat forums. In our case, totalfrance, and french entree. There will be similar ones for Spain. There are pages and pages of threads about moving, education, health, special needs, and regional sections, too. I've just had a quick google, and there are over 200,000 links to 'expat forum Spain', so that's a start

Don't forget, there is always Skype and email.

Sorry if this is a bit bleak, it isn't meant to be. Just our experience.