Do I want to move back to Germany or not?

[frumperina]

I left straight out of school and have been living in London for 18 years. Now that I have a child I keep thinking about going back, I think it would be so much nicer for her to grow up in the countryside like I did.
The things that are holding me back are this:
-Tolerance/ Multicultural bla bla:DD is mixed race. We never had any problems when visiting but I doubt DH would get a job and I wonder if DD would have problems in school.( I think the bigger cities would be fine, but out in the sticks where I am from?)
-I wonder if I would get a job, short term contracts seem to very common and there aren't a lot of jobs in my field in our area.I'm thinking maybe I could set up as a childminder though.
-Cost of living: I have no idea about this and my mother is bonkers and does not provide reliable information. She claims we would not be able to live on say 2000 euros a month, or rather she says she can't live on that. She doesn't have a mortgage and we live on that in London while paying rent, so I have no idea what the hell she spends her money on. Is Germany really that expensive?

I think if you want helpful answers you need to be a bit more specific.
Does your DH speak German?
Which area would you move to?
What kind of jobs are you looking for?
2000 EUR a month sounds pretty doable, though.
In general, I think Germany is a good place to bring up children. A lot less frantic, more freedom for children just to be kids.
Hth.

I think rents value enormously throughout Germany, so how comfortable you'll be on ?2000 depends totally on where in Germany you aim to go back to (not just that you intend to be rural, but which region). We are in Bayern, which is one of (or the) most expensive parts of the country, and live in a very small village/ hamlet (4km to nearest shop and Kindergarten in another village, 8km to nearest train or S bahn stations, from which you can get into Munich central station in about 50 mins) and pay ?850 a month cold for a reasonably sized but not huge 3 bed house with small garden. We have had a look at other villages outside Munich which would be more convenient to my DH's work but even well outside Munich in other directions you are often looking at ?1200 upwards a month rent.

Other areas of Germany are vastly cheaper, flats are also obviously cheaper, it depends what you want!

Overall I would say other living expenses average out broadly similar to the UK, some things more expensive, some cheaper.

I can't advise much on the racial prejudice element although I agree that rural areas are very "white" and people might well make ignorant comments. Whether your husband could find work would depend more on whether he speaks German and his line of work though I would think. Would he be happy to be a SAH Dad if you worked, if you are sure he wouldn't be able to work for some reason? Locally to us it is much easier to have a SAH parent as everything is geared up that way, with school finishing at 11.20am etc.

Good luck deciding!

Oh just saw you wanted to set up as a childminder - you should have no problem as you are a native German speaker, you have to go on a lot of courses but - then seem to be allowed to mind millions of children (far more than the UK ratios), and there does seem to be a market, lots of people struggle to find childcare, here anyway - if your area has KiGas that admit from 2 you may have less business.

Depends where you're from in Germany. If it was e.g. the North, you could live in Hamburg or Berlin and still have the countryside all around. Cost of living, as I'm sure you know as a German, varies enormously. 2,000 /month in Berlin would be absolutely doable but no way in Munich!

I think 2000 a month for a family of 3 when you factor in rent, utilities, health insurance, food, car or public transport costs, Kindergarten at some stage, clothing and saving for emergencies, other costs that come up (sport and so on, trips, presents) would I think be very tight but presumably at some stage your dh would find work and the income would be augmented. You could do it perhaps but I am not how comfortable/pleasant life would be for you all on that income.

You don't say what part of Germany you would like to move to. I think there are maybe a lot more people of obviously immigrant background living in Germany now than there were presumably when you left. Perhaps this holds true for your home town too now. I think you'd have to go for a longer trip and see the schools etc to get an idea of how it is.

There is also the possibility of moving within Germany once you get there. If you weren't happy in your home town, perhaps you could move to a bigger place not too far away from there?

I would look at it: short-term, middle-term, long-term

short-term: can you get by on that amount whilst dh attends German courses and you all settle in? You don't say how old your dd is but perhaps you don't need a school for some time. In order not to have been out of work for too long, dh could be teaching English in this period possibly. He could do a preparatory course before leaving for Germany.

middle-term: you need to have found the right school for dd, dh needs to have learnt German in order to find work in his field and put down roots (this is also going to be an important part of ensuring he is happy there I should think)

longer-term: (I'd be thinking of dc's education/training after school), professional prospects for both you and dh

If that all sounds workable and positive, I think you could attempt it. Never harms to have some money under your belt when you do move abroad though, so if you have good savings atm to tide you over till income is settled, that would not be a bad thing.

I live in NL, but use a lot of German services (e.g., am in Germany as I type as it's cheaper for my horse here...). I keep a lot of costs down by buying in Germany or getting stuff sent over from UK. Swings & roundabout I'd say. As you've said, mixed race a lot less of an issue in the cities and away from bavaria! ;)

Thank you all, very helpful advice.
Ideally I would look to move back where my family are, south of Berlin, pretty rural area,high unemployment as far as I know. Mainly because we could live with family and wouldn't have to rent/buy a house.The other places I would consider would be Berlin or Leipzig but I also like Hamburg.
DD is only 18 months so has got a way to go until school yet, that is another reason I prefer Germany, I shudder at the thought of packing her off to school at 4 in the UK.
DH only speaks a little bit of German but also hasn't got a proper 'profession' as such, you know how you have to do a 3 year 'Ausbildung' for any kind of job in Germany, so that would be a problem.He would be good as a SAHD but that is not forever either I guess.
I am reassured that 2000 euros seems to be doable. Don't know why my mother thinks it isn't, maybe she has a secret stash of designer clothes in the basement.

IF you don't need to pay rent, you'll be fine on 2,000 IMO. It would be good if one of you had a steady job, just to feel secure. How does dh feel about a move, is he enthusiastic?

Is there a fast train to Berlin? If so, maybe one of you could commute to work while the other is either a SAHD and learning German or a SAHM. Depending on what dh does/can do workwise, he might find work in Berlin with a smattering of German. He could try the embassies. THey hire local staff and he might not need much German, if any. What there is a demand for in Berlin, if you or dh could imagine doing it, is working as an English speaking Erzieher/in in bilingual kitas. Probably this requires some kind of qualification, however I am not entirely sure about that. Without an equivalent of an Erzieher qualification, you would be paid less but still it might be a possibility. To work in a bar, cafe for instance, you don't need to have mastered German. Probably the local schools in your home town now have English as compulsory first foreign language so there may be a chance of working as some kind of language assistant.

Longer term, he would need to learn German well enough to do an apprenticeship or work without one, just generally not be too dependent on you. With that in mind, the less he speaks English at work, the better.

Hi Frump,
When I was pondering which part of Berlin or Brandenburg (for commute into Berlin) to live to as from summer this year, I was strongly advised to stay clear of the former East Berlin (except places like Prenzlauer Berg where you do have some multiculturalism on an affluent level) and all of Brandenburg except for places that have seen an influx of people from other parts of Germany since the Wende. Towns in Brandenburg just outside of Berlin suggested to me that I recall are Teltow, Stahnsdorf and Falkensee. There were mixed opinions about Kleinmachnow which I never quite got to the bottom of. It may be helpful looking at election results gained by the NPD. In any case both Teltow and Falkensee have excellent train connections to Berlin.

I can't offer any information on the job market, but do believe that at least as far as Berlin goes kindergarten teachers are in short supply. If you speak English on a native speaker level one of the bilingual nurseries springing up may be the perfect entry point for you. You would need to find out though what sort of qualifications you need to have, which the Arbeitsagentur should be able to give you.

Even though rents have risen in several sought after districts/quarters in Berlin the cost of living is still considered to be lower than that of large West German towns/cities, and very much lower that expensive London.

Viel Erfolg und viel Glück.

Caterpillar

"Towns in Brandenburg just outside of Berlin suggested to me that I recall are Teltow, Stahnsdorf and Falkensee. There were mixed opinions about Kleinmachnow which I never quite got to the bottom of."

Eh, we live 100 metres from Kleinmachnow and I've never thought there's much of a problem. KM is Berlin in all but name. I know lots of non-Germans there - nobody has ever had any sort of hassle. The Real supermarket is pretty dodgy though.

As far as Stahnsdorf is concerned, we nearly bought a house there in a new estate 10 years ago (and then went for a smaller place in Berlin, just, instead). We asked the Makler if there were any other non-German families on the (large) estate, and he struggled a bit but then came up with one family with a Turkish father and German mother. That says it all. Apart from that I know two Canadians who live in Stahnsdorf (separately) but both are married to Germans.

DH teaches in higher education in Brandenburg and finds it pretty dire in terms of prehistoric attitudes. What part of 'south of Berlin' are you from? So much of it now is in the commuter belt, and generally speaking if you have an English-speaking child in KM or Potsdam you will be allowed to use Berlin schools (my DC go to school with several Brandenburg kids - the Berlin school system is bad, but still preferable to Brandenburg). There's a private English school in KM and several state schools in Zehlendorf (PM me if you want to know more about them).

Generally speaking, Germany is a great place to be bringing up kids, and around Berlin is a good place because there are far more options for childcare than in eg Bavaria. I was in a village outside Munich last weekend and it was lovely but a bit Stepford wives-like.

I know of one Kita which might be interested in taking you in Zehlendorf, if you could go along with Montessori ideas and be prepared to do a berufsbegleitetes Studium.

Caterpillar - "I was strongly advised to stay clear of the former East Berlin (except places like Prenzlauer Berg where you do have some multiculturalism on an affluent level) and all of Brandenburg except for places that have seen an influx of people from other parts of Germany since the Wende."
Sad, isn't it. We spend a lot of time exploring Brandenburg, but would certainly be less keen if any of us were mixed race.

Darrow, the towns I mentioned were suggested as places that have seen a large influx of West Germans (that are asumed to be more tolerant of diversity), not as havens of multiculturalism. My DH is a mixed race German, and for this reason I wanted to avoid the "risk" of living in any area that had a relatively high percentage of NPD voters. Like I wrote, I never quite got to the bottom of why two people I spoke to considered KM of all places to be a semi-no-go area. For reasons related to schooling Brandenburg ended up being out of question anyway, and we will be moving to Berlin.

I was told that dc registered as living in Brandenburg cannot attend state secondaries in Berlin. Is that true or do they make an exception for dc attending bilingual schools?

As far as regular secondary/grammar schools go I believe it is generally possible for a child residing in Brandenburg to attend such a school providing space is available. A very worried acquaintance who is moving to Potsdam/Brandenburg in summer told me that he fought a long and hard battle to get his children accepted into grammar schools in or around Potsdam. In the interim he had also considered sending them to Berlin but came to find out that as a consequence of the increasing amount of parents looking at sending their children to grammar schools it appears that there are not enough (good ones?) available in Berlin.
Unfortunately I have no information on the Sekundarschulen.
Thinking about it rationally I would imagine that as long as you are not looking for entry into year 5 or 7 there will usually be an opening here and there.

The story is a bit different in the state-run bilingual international schools. The feedback I received from last year indicates that incoming pupils new to Berlin, let along those from Brandenburg, hardly stood any chance of being admitted into year 2 and above of the most sought after Nelson Mandela and John F. Kennedy Schools, irrespective of whether or not they fulfilled the admission criteria. The reason for this is that a lot less of the "highly mobile" families left Berlin, or to look at it from a different angle, a lot of these families extend their tours/rotations in Berlin because it does offer such a high standard of living for families. If the parents don't leave, the children do not leave, hence no space for new admissions.

Copy and paste from the site of the state-run Nelson Mandela School Berlin: "75% of all places in year 1 are reserved for children from highly mobile families whose parents are either members of the diplomatic corps or employed by the German Foreign Office, the German federal government, visiting scholars, the international media or companies operating internationally. The remaining 25% are given to children from Berlin who do not belong to that group."

See here information on admission into the John F. Kennedy School in Berlin.

Sorry, have been laid low by tonsillitis, didn't mean to ignore all your helpful advice!
I think we need to start working on DC2 and rethink while I'm on maternity leave next time.
It's interesting to hear they are short of kindergarten teachers in Berlin, I have been thinking about retraining in that direction before.