anyone opted not to join the expat circuit?

[twiddletwaddle]

I am interested if anyone has done this and why and whether it has helped learning the local language.

Yes, it makes a huge difference.
I spent 9 years in Japan, living most of it as a local. (Although my work was all English language related.)
I learned the language and felt very at home and settled.

We now live in Belgium and I live entirely as an expat.
I speak English everyday and rarely use my French.
All my friends are foreigners and I don't feel like I am a part of the Belgian community at all.
My French ability has barely changed at all since I arrived. (ie it is still very basic!)

I moved to France (Paris) over 20 years ago and, although I always had international friends, I never got in with an expat circle, perhaps because my French was already very fluent.

For a few years I went entirely native and met my French DP (Parisian through and through) and now have two Parisian DSSs and my own hybrid DD. My friends are all sorts these days!

Yes, in Spain. As a student I opted to rent a room in a local flatshare rather than with other foreign students - and you could see the difference in how my language skills developed compared to my peers from the same british uni.

Later, DH and i lived there for a while and actively avoided other expats. It is harder work meeting people and making friends but we felt much more part of the local community. Embarrassingly for me, all our Spanish friends think he has the better accent - I learnt my Spanish at school and uni but 'perfected' it over there. DH learnt all his in Spain so he learnt it all from natives. His grammar is a bit dodgy though because he didn't take classes, just jade a conversation partner and picked it up that way. He also had a languages degree so found it quite easy to pick up.

It probably depends on your prior knowledge of the language, which language and your working/living environment once in the country.

Make me jealous - where are you hoinf?

i am trying hard with the local language (german) with no previous knowledge but i have to be realistic - it will take many years to be fluent and as one lady said to me " if you want to have no friends then you carry on as you are" and i see what she was trying to say in her hamfisted way - you either speak english and make friends or operate at a very basic level of german and it will be very hard to really connect with someone.

i am totally rubbish at the expat stuff anyway - last posting was all mixing with expats and feeling that you needed to try and make instant friends. i guess it is jut trying to take things slowly and not rush to try to make friends.

however a year in and although i have some local friends and between us we speak basic german and english, we have no family friends, pople we would get together with at the weekend. my husband has no friends at all here and it is just work and being with the children.

Is it ever possible to do a bit of both? Sounds a bit lonely, but I understand the value of immersing yourself in wherever you live

twiddletwaddle - I am at the moment trying to get out of the expat circle (ie the english speakers group) by going to college to learn the language.

Unfortunately, I'm finding it very difficult. People either speak perfect English, in which case it's difficult to chat in their own language because i am so wooden sounding and can't express my personality. Or, I am able to practice the language but the conversation is so stilted as to be painful.

Either way, I find that I am accidently gravitating towards english speakers as all the locals seem a little closed-off anyway at times and the english speakers seem more community-ish (community clean ups, arts and culture programmes, music evenings etc arranged really well where it's easy to meet others). Here, it's like people either see their old friends or family. There are no mum and toddler groups as women go straight back to work.
I'm trying hard - watching their TV, listening to their radio, even reading books, but finding it a hard nut to crack.

Where are you living?

Sorry - just realised you're living in Germany and that was your posting!

In which case, you do sound lonely. I've just accepted that I am English, I speak English, it's the way I express my personality. It's not going to be quick as being immersed in the local language, but as long as I'm learning the local language and try and make friends, then I am just going to give into the fact that most of my friends are either english speakers or people who speak english well.

As it is, after nearly a year away I would say we have some rather lovely friends here who we can depend on. And as to learning the local language - I am definitely finding the more I'm learning, the friendlier the locals seem to become!

We've lived in various countries and had a mixture of friends, local and international but never been in a "expat circle" so to speak. Fortunately we've never been to a country where I didn't speak the language so I never had that problem.

Now we're moving back to Geneva in the summer where we lived 2003-9. We have a mix of friends there, the international ones are mainly from work, and we have local friends as well as we speak French.

IMVHO nothing is mutually exclusive, there's no reason why having some international friends precludes you form having local friends and vice versa. That said our local friends consider us to be pretty far removed from the typical image of expats! So absolutely keep plugging away with your language studies and it will totally pay off, it takes time, and certainly longer than a year to have "family friends".

Hmm, Germany. I love Germany (also speak German) but can understand why you're struggling on the social side. Have you looked up your local branch of the Deutsch -Britische Gesellschaft? All the members will be desperate to practise their English with you, but they will have regular meet-ups and maybe other events going on.

Have you thought about joining a club you're interested in? Sorry if I'm suggesting things you've already tried. I spent some time in Germany alone and joined a rambling society. The thing with Germans is, they do mostly speak basic to passable (or better) English. You might find it easier to make local friends if you accept That, to begin with anyway, you are the person/family they practise English with. They'll probably be willing to speak German to you, too.

Yes - but partly through circumstance in that we live out in the countryside (for work purposes) and it's a small country with most expats in the city which is an hour and a half drive away.

When we came we didn't speak the language at all and very few people here speak English so we've had to learn. DH has learnt it very well and studied a lot (mainly from books) I've faffed around and am ok but not fluent (grammer pretty bad). I have friends here but it is a bit lonely and I don't feel like people know the real me because I can't communicate as well as I'd like.

I've dipped my toe into expat circles by joining the Women's club and have made one or two friends that way but being so far away means that I don't see people all that often. TBH though the expat life seems a million miles away from the way we live (poor country, life in the villages very old fashioned and basic but in the city entirely possible with money to live quite a 'normal' westernised lifestyle). Sometimes I think I'd like to live nearer the city and be more part of things but I know that I wouldn't improve my language at all, and for the work we do we need to be here.

I find a bit of both works best for me.
My husband is Bulgarian so I'm part of his family and circle of friends. I have a few Bulgarian friends of my own and also a few expat friends.

You don't have to exclusively be part of one or the other but surrounding yourself with expats will hamper your language learning.

I had a foot in both camps during my decade or so in Japan. I spoke some Japanese before I arrived, and had some Japanese friends from before, and that helped a lot.

To start with I was working mostly with other foreigners, but we chose to live in increasingly non-expat areas, then when I had children I went to local baby groups and sent the children to local nurseries and kindergartens, so made a lot more local friends that way. But I did also join an expat antenatal/mother and baby group, and sometimes it was good to be able to talk to people with the same set of cultural expectations.

I think you get so much more out of life abroad if you can learn the language and build up a circle of local friends, but the expat network can also be invaluable for an easy way of making friends and having a social life - other expats are usually very open to making new friends quickly, but local friendships tend to take longer to build up (but then they don't disappear to their next posting every couple of years either).

I think you just have to be patient. It's hard to make friends before you can communicate decently with each other.

I live in France but in a city with not a lot of expats. Luckily we have family here, otherwise would probably feel a bit isolated, although we have made friends with the neighbours who have a little girl the same age as our son.

I'm finishing my studies now but soon will start really crunching on the French! But will probably try to seek out some English speakers in the meantime. It's not cheating or anything

Meanwhile I just saw this recently, on learning languages quickly -- some good tips!

lifehacker.com/5903288/i-learned-to-speak-four-languages-in-a-few-years-heres-how

Dreamingboh is right. I do think that it's chicken and egg. It's hard to make friends without the language, but unless ou are practicing the language, you'll never get better.

But there are other benefits to having a mix of friends. I've found the only other Brit mum for miles here. Seeing her is like having a warm bath, sheer bliss. Apart from the fact that she makes me laugh until I cry within the first minute, it's wonderful to sometimes just be able to 'be English'. (there are a few English speakers, but they wouldn't know who Jimmy Hill was!) If I feel I need comfort, she is there.
It doesn't mean to say that I haven't made friends in my language class, but it's just homey.

A good friend of mine is married to a Danish woman who's been in the UK now for 15 years. I remember her lamenting her English when she'd been here about 5 years, which i thought was good. I said "but you're close to fluent", and she said "No, nowhere near. I can't make a joke in English"

Because of this, she found what many people have said here, that she found it hard to convey who she was/ the essence of herself.

I didn't know any other English mother tongue speakers for the first 2 years and didn't make any effort to find any. I'm not sure my experience is that relevant as I was already fluent in the language though as I studied it and spoke it with DH family on visits, phone calls etc before moving here. Naturally my language improved once living here as I started hearing a wider variety of expressions and picked up vocab I didn't have previously through situations like taking the car to get it serviced or buying plants for the garden and being forced to work in a new field.
Once first DC was born and I realised that English would be the minority language I actively started looking for other families that were raising bilingual children so that DS would not feel that he was weird for speaking a differerent language at home and now have made some good British friends and it's true, the laughs I have with them aren't quite the same as the laughs I have with French people.
I just had to google 'Jimmy Hill' Neither DH or I have any interest in football.

For years I was involved with the "expat community" but realised (in time) that the endless whirl of getting pissed wasn't actually for me. Since then I've met local friends through my horse - and my husband has made friends at work and golf.

As someone else said, the expat community is great for fast, "fun" friendships - but the last person I really clicked with got sent home a year early. :(

So for me, a mix of expat and local is good. A good example of this is my husband's friend who had a little boy this week - his mum is English and his dad is local - so our boys will have another little boy to hang out with of the same age who speaks English and Dutch - and assuming we don't move away, they'll grow up together.

Beware being friends with someone just because they're a native speaker - there are many people out there you'd not go for a coffee with in Berkshire, never mind the back of beyond!

Oh to be able to joke with ease...

No expats here. Well, there are a handful of American aircraft engineers and their families who do a 3 yr stint and apparently (according to a woman I met on a flight) a "thriving group of British women who meet once a month for cocktails and a reading group".

I do think friends with similar experiences are important. I've been here 18 yrs and so most Brits come and then go...so I've made friends in the past who have moved on. But they definitely help....only they can understand the madster things that locals find normal. But then again, the madster Brits I've met here beggar belief. Dp's stalker......the bloke who left notes saying "die you bitch" in my friend's knicker drawer.....

thank you for the posts. i will look up the british german groups. i have limited time alone to do things as children with me each afternoon. there apper to be very few toddler groups for locals. we go to gymnastics and dancing and iknow lots of people to have a basic chat to. i guess i feel i am not very good at the "fast" friends of expat groups. i tend to need to fill the awkwardness of no one knowing what to say to one another by bombarding people with questions and generally being uncool.

does anyone remember rubbin your chin and saying "jimmy hill"?

It is possible to do both. I have plenty of foreign friends but also local friends, and my dh's family is local.

My work (and studying) has always been in the local language, and I am involved with my children's school. My children are almost totally flemish but speak good english as well.

But I do really appreciate having foreign friends, I find them very supportive and understanding. I have made some strong, long term friendships with other foreigners.

twiddletwaddle - it is possible to get to a good level of the language within a couple of years but you need intensive lessons, and the opportunity to speak the language on a daily basis. That is very difficult to do if you don't have child care.

i think it is very different if you speak the language, work and/or have a local spouse. you can "afford" to be in both camps. i met lots of people here and in previous post who never learned the local language. in the end in the last posting i felt embarassed not to be able to go into a shop and ask for something. but here i. don,t speak the language, don,t work and do not have a local spouse so feel i should resist getting too sucked into english groups.

twiddletwaddle - I took intensive lessons and got a job in the local hospital, continuing with the lessons in the evenings. Believe me, it wasn't easy (a few people have assumed that I have somehow found it easier then them).

The main difference is that I did this before having children, so I wasn't tied down to sorting out child care.

i agree. time before children you can intensively learn a language andi would do that now if i could but i have children home every afternoon and cannot attend a course until august. if you are here with small children you revert to english groups because it is hard to find time to do anything else and then maybe you never learn the language