Move abroad with baby and toddler or stay 'safe' at home? - help us decide

[sparklyflowers]

We have an 18 month old DS and we are having our second DC in around 7 weeks.
We rent our house in the UK and have been looking to buy but can't find anything we love at the mo and are watching prices go down in our area, so it is tempting to wait, however, we are fully up to capacity and DC's will be needing to share a room so need to buy / make a change soon. We (I) are VERY fed up with our rental place and in some ways I am desperate to get our own place we can nest in I guess : )
DH has had a long standing ambition to live abroad. While I can and do get excited about the potential opportunities and would love to experience it in a way, it scares me, but I don't think that should stop us doing it as I don't want to have regrets. We live in a fairly deprived area and I don't want to be locked here forever. We nearly moved away twice before DC's but for various reasons out of our control these fell through - again DH was more confident with it all, but I was up for it.
DH has a well paid job with flexible Europe wide location and I've been given a career break for 3 years, so DH is suggesting we re-locate for a couple of years once we are back on our feet after DC2 and give it a go before DC's need to be enrolled at school etc.
DH has no close family. I do and although they can be of limited help TBH they are quite full on emotionally and I know they would be gutted if we considered moving away, even if it was only short term (judging by previous very intense reactions). DH says this should not influence our family decision, but it is hard as I don't want to hurt feelings etc. I also worry about how I would fit in / find a social life as a SAHM in the a foreign place. How do you meet other parents with pre-school children? How will the children's development be affected with relatively short term change / foreign experiences? The likely choices would be France or Spain due to proximity to UK and previous experiences there. What do SAHM in France and Spain do - is it similar to UK? Neither of us speak the language though (well, very very little!).

Would you grab this opportunity with both hands or buy the house and make the home we've been looking for in the UK and settle for holidays?

Ooh, so many questions..

In Southern Spain, where I am, women don't really SAH to be honest and it is very hard to meet Spanish SAHMs, or Spanish mums in general. Expats often do SAH, especially those who follow their husbands for work. There is an American Womens Club in my city which is quite good for organising things for English speaking (not necessarily American) women. If you don't speak the language at all life can be hard and really quite lonely, especially if you SAH.

I would really want to learn the language wherever we went, but this would obviously not happen overnight. Are there toddler groups / similar if there aren't many SAHM's? Wouldn't want to be very isolated and counting the hours until DH came home every day...

Where I am there are NO toddler groups or anything of the sort, except those organised by the expat SAHMs and the don't tend to run in the summer as most of them go home for at least a month then. Spanish women pretty much all work and put the kids in nursery and when they socialise it's with family.

I havent lived in mainland Europe myself, but from what I've heard, outside major expat hubs, it can be tough for English expats mainly because

• if you're not fluent/close to fluent, it's hard to socialise/ develop relationships effectively with locals- being able to say "where is the train station?" is a long way from being able to follow a multi-person conversation in a busy restaurant about some obscure TV show that you've never seen.
• it is more common for people to socialise predominantly with family than in the UK
• there can be very little in terms of organised pre-school activities, although imagine this varies quite widely- my friends weren't in big cities

That said, my sister moved to LatAm and was fluent 6 mo later- however, she fully immersed herself (worked on a charity project site with no other English speakers) and had A-level Spanish before she left.

If you stay a home and have little prior ability in the language don't kid yourself that you'll magically be fluent in a year - you won't unless you have an exceptional ear for languages and take courses (which would involve putting your children in childcare or studying in those precious evening hours when - hopefully - your little ones are asleep and your DH home).

I have been in Germany 4.5 years, and live in an area with pretty much no native English speakers. I'm no shrinking violet and talk to people all the time, but I arrived with very, very limited German and have been home with small children (and had 2 of them here) aside from a bit of English teaching work, and I am still years and years of being fluent - in fact i doubt I will ever be. I can "chat" and I can follow what the teacher tells us at parents meetings, obviously I can shop and travel etc. but having the kind of easy conversation you have with a friend who shares your native language is a rare luxury that occurs when I can haul my brood into the city, around the edges of their school and other commitments, and meet up with the few ex-pats I know.

I am not saying don't do it, I am saying think about your preconceptions, especially around language - not sharing the majority's mother tongue is a huge isolating factor, unless you live in the ex-pat bubble of native English speakers on ex-pat contracts, who have their own issues of shifting population usually.

years and years off being fluent

I have lived in Germany and Austria and you really need to learn the language for all the reasons Real Life mentions.
My children both went to toddler gymnastics, mums and toddler groups, but everything was in German. There were a reasonable amount of shams as jobs are guaranteed for 3 years if you take maternity leave.

I have lived in Brussels for 6 years, and despite having reasonable French when I arrived, I don't speak it much better than I did when I got here. Brussels, however, is an excellent place for expats - 25% of the population are non-Belgian so there are multitudes of clubs and groups/activities galore for children. Maternelle starts at 2.5 yo so you would have the opportunity to put your older dc in school if you wanted.

Thanks for your replies. As this would be more of a 'lets do it for fun' than a must do because of work, that certainly gives me something to think about. My DH is of the opinion that anywhere is better than here, but I do try and tell him just because it wouldn't be here and may be nicer weather there are lots of other considerations to make.

The other option / additional option we would both be lucky enough to have would be for both of us to be off for 6 months towards the end of my career break and have a long family break / holiday. In the meantime we could sort a house here etc. This may be the more 'fun' option?

If you have flexibility as to location within Europe, why not consider locations where English is used more widely - Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland? You still have the opportunity to pick up a new language and culture but less pressure on you. And it will be you - presumably your DH will be speaking English at work, but it will be you grappling with the children's schools, doctor, dentist, shops, post office, TV licence... never mind the social side.

Moving abroad is a very positive experience, but I think you have to prepare, and be aware of how much of a challenge you are taking on. I'm in an English speaking country, with my kids in an international school, but it is still difficult to wade through the bureaucracy and day-to-day minutiae at times.

But that said, yes, if you fancy a stint overseas, it is MUCH easier to do it while your kids are in nursery. And the distance from family becomes kind of irrelevant - once you are a plane ride away, 2 hours or 4 hours, or even 6 hours, doesn't really make much difference to the frequency of visits.

Just to share my experiences with you, I lived in Belgium for 15 years and loved it. Arrived there a student and 'grew up' there, settled properly into life and work and had 2 DC there.

Last year we moved to Sweden, where DH is from. DD2 was very young and there is no possibility of childcare for children under 12 months in the Swedish system. This meant me being a SAHM which I had never been before, having returned to work after DD1 when she was 3 months old.

We knew this and what it would mean for example financially and prepared for such. However I found it very tough indeed being home all the time with the DDs. DD1 is entitled to 15 hours a week of nursery while I'm home with DD2, and the hours are very strict so it's not always convenient for DD2. I have found the relentlessness of full time SAHM-ness to be a killer although that may well be because of managing the effects of two small children, moving, house-hunting, language-learning all in one go. It's getting better now!!

We are in a small town and found people to be much more friendly than when we lived in a larger town when we initially arrived. I speak basic Swedish and people around are accepting of my funny accent etc. A few offered to speak English to me in the beginning, but I kind of insisted as we are here for the long haul and I didn't want to be akward in company. I notice that Swedes are good at English, but shy about using it socially so it helps that I have my basic skills and I know that if I throw in an English word or two that they will understand.

I openly admit that I have struggled. This move was more for DH than for me. I have railed against the system and argued with DH endlessly due to being unhappy and feeling alone out here. Time passes however and I see that as a family we have a better lifestyle here. DD2 will start nursery in the summer, and I will look for part-time work to give me back some of the lost identity I have being a SAHM.

Having made the move, the things that we are happy with here are:
the education on offer
cost of childcare
the quality of life (work-life balance is excellent)
friendliness of neighbours and their willingness to help us out
friends that the children have met
housing
nature and general space around us
cleanliness of the place where we live
accessibility of services/healthcare

In Sweden parents (either mums or dads) are home for typically 18 months when their kids are born. Then if a sibling is born, obviously home again for similar time, during which time kids under 7 are on reduced childcare hours. So there are many mums and young kids at home for great portions of the day which gives a lot of friends/contacts/support.

I think there are some down-sides to the supposed Scandinavian dream, but there are a great deal of good elements of it too.

France there are few SAHMs and I haven't found any toddler groups, unless you're near a military base where there are more SAHMs but they're cliquey even if you marry in.

Thanks for your replies. I'm thinking Belgium may be a great idea which we hadn't thought of with the access back to the UK being so good too. We have visited there before and like it very much.

I definitely don't want to be totally isolated from people Mon-Fri and it seems quite hard for French and Spanish Expat Mums from what has been said here?

I guess we were hoping for some guaranteed 'nice' weather but I'm starting to realise that what is a pipe dream and what would be a realistic and enjoyable lifestyle to be a SAHM with two children under 3 are very different.

Can anyone advise on the situation for property / renting in Belgium? Is it usual to live in an apartment in Brussels rather than a house? What are costs of living like?

Do you think living abroad for a couple of years would positively (or negatively) influence very small children or they wouldn't remember / be influenced by it at all?

Hi. I'm in Belgium too.
It's a very good place for foreigners to live, as Portofino and others have already said.
There is such a big expat population here that it's an easy community to fit into.
People who live in the centre of Brussels tend to live in smaller houses or more often appartments, as in any big city.
I live in Waterloo which is a town/suburb south of Brussels. Here more people live in houses.
There are lots of options for schools here. Many people put their children in local schools so they learn French or Dutch fluently.
My children are in international school, bilingual English/French. They understand quite a lot of French, but are not fluent and English is their main language.

I honestly think that living abroad is an excellent experience for children.
They learn that the world is a bigger place than just one country.
They make friends from lots of different countries and hear their languages and cultures. It makes them open-minded and more understanding of other cultures.

I would totally recommend Belgium. I miss it, and wish we still lived there!!

If you aren't a fluent French speaker, then try the flemish communes on the outskirts of Brussels (places like Sterrebeek, Tervuren, Overijse have quite a lot of expats). The flemish speak excellent English. Facilities are generally better in Flanders and you could manage to be quite close to the capital without having to live in a city (unless that's what you want)

Most parents work, and mums go back quite quickly after having kids. 3 month mat leave is common. Some take 6 but that's really the maximum. But many mums work part-time. Your best bet would probably be other ex-pat mums, so living in a typically expat area would be an advantage.

Plenty of opportunities for jobs for English speakers if you want to return to work at a later stage.

Health care is the best I have encountered. Be prepared to pay at the point of delivery, but you can get insurance for a very reasonable price which will cover most things. No waiting times, accessible, empathetic professionals who are very proactive.

www.immoweb.be is the main property website. I would say MOST expats are living in the central/south/east part of Brussels. So Etterbeek, Ixelles, Woluwe St Pierre, Auderghem, Kraainem, Wezembeek, Tervuren- with others south in Waterloo and Rixensart. The website should give you an indication of what you get for your money....Generally it gets cheaper the further out you go.

Belgium is more expensive than the UK I think - but child benefit is higher, and the quality of life is better. Lots and lots of child friendly stuff. As a sahm you would have access to lots of groups eg BCT Belgium, and there is a large contingent of MNetters, which always helps....

Another advantage is the ease with which you can access the rest of Europe. France, Germany, Holland, Luxembourg within 2 hours - and no ferry.....

Hi all

Thanks for your replies - it sounds like what we have been looking for - an overseas experience with some assurance of social contact / other families and a new / better experience with children.

I've been having a quick look at property and it seems for a 3 / 4 bed house you're lloking at 1000-1500 euro minimum for rental. Does that sound about right? Do people with families tend to live in houses or flats / apartments? The total costs would have a bearing on where we chose as that would be quite expensive rent in the UK outside London.

I was thinking a 4 bed would be great as then we'd have a spare room for visiting strays / family but I don't know if this is a little greedy Maybe a sofa bed would be a better option!

Are furnished places common or is an ikea trip usual for those who don't know if they're in it for the long haul? I know in Spain - due to the number of expats, there is quite a business in trading furnishings etc for people coming and going as I guess kittingout a full house could be pricey.

Furnished is rare. In fact most places come with no light fittings, or curtain poles. Our house comes from Ikea! I would say those prices sound average. I know people living in apartments and houses - it would depend on whether you would really miss having a garden. There are lots of parks.

We live in one of the most affluent of the 19 communes in Brussels region. We have 4 bedrooms which are all double sized, we have a double garage, small garden, 2 caves (basement storage), pay 1500 per month. In our commune, the cheapest 4 bed you could find would be 1200 and a rare find too, because expats tend to be quite wealthy in this area and often have their rent paid too, the average 4 bed in the area is probably over 2000 per month and some rent for 5000 even! So you pay for what you get. The cheapest you'd pay in our commune for a 3 bed would be 900 and again you could pay over 2000 for very high spec. Prices are lower in other commune in Brussels, but still for 3 beds, you'd struggle to find a 3 bed house or apartment for less than 700 per month.

Just to show you can get a "bargain" property even in the most expensive communes in Brussels, here is a 3 bed apartment with use of garden, 2 minute walk from the metro, small shopping centre, a well regarded school, plenty of shops and cafes... it's 850 euro a month, extra charges only if you want to rent the garage.
www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.estate.cfm?idbien=3314466&ongletactif=2&jpgnameinp=3314466_5.jpg&xincludedetail=2&xgallery=gallery&mycurrent_section=Rent&xbg=N#ongletphoto