Leaving Comfort Zone, Moving To A Life Less Ordinary?!?

[SueDeNym]

Hi

Just hoping to chat out a few of our thoughts re a possible relocation, with those of you who have done it, please. Was it the best thing you have done, do you struggle, not ever properly able to feel 'at home'? Or is it now absolutely home? I like the idea of being a nomadic free spirit, travelling here for a year, there for a while, then somewhere else, but I also like my home comforts, familiarity, security, a base.

I have been in my home for eight years, comfortable, happy, lovely location. I am a SAHP to one DC, 16mo. TTC DC2.
DH is being considered for a job in Europe. He is bored of his current job, and the new job would be a good career move, even if it is only for the duration of one project (15-18 months), it will be a great stepping stone and experience for him. I am excited at the prospect of upping sticks, but also anxious. I don't speak a word of the language, though I understand English is widely spoken there. Not that I want to be one of those ignoramuses who don't try and learn. I also do like that DC1 will be exposed to a second language, what an advantage that would be, to be immersed in a second language so young, when they can pick it up so easily.

It would be a good base location in Europe from which to explore other areas of Europe, much of which I have not been to. I like the idea of well-travelled DC, I think it is good for them.

What should we be thinking about? Do you travel light? We have been dejunking, but after eight years here, and merging two homes as we both owned before we married, we still have quite a bit of stuff. I guess we'd have to put some things in storage/PIL's garage.

So much to consider. DH has not got the job yet, but if they say yes, they want an answer from him soon, so we need to think now.

Would appreciate some encouragement. Thanks.

"there's no such thing as soft play here" - that's absolutely not true in Berlin, where there are quite a few large places. The place we're nearest to was where Brangelina took their kid when they visited Berlin . It's not called 'soft play' though, more commonly 'Indoorspielplatz', so maybe try googling that with Frankfurt.

Here's one in Frankfurt for instance.

'can anyone please tell me how much cheaper it might be to live in the Frankfurt area than in central London' Friends of ours live out in the country about 30 miles from Frankfurt and have a lovely but small detached house for 600 Euros per month.

OP - Having read the thread and what you?re planning I?d question why you want to do it.

You seem to want to float on top of the host country without actually engaging with it- e.g. you don?t speak German and although you plan to, I?d question how fluent you?ll get in a year if your primary daily interaction is with an English speaking pre-schooler, you?re not integrating your child into local nursery/school, you?re not taking much stuff, you?re coming home to give birth. To get the most out of living in a country you actually have to live in it and ?do as the Romans do.? Otherwise you may as well just do a city break. Some things you experience in immersing yourself will be challenging/confusing or you?d prefer the British way, but that?s part of it. If you?re already planning workarounds for every unfamiliar situation, why are you going? Like, if the Germna registrar won't let you call DD "Twig" then just put Helga on her BC and call her Twig anyway- then she'll always have a good funny story for corporate icebreakers. Of these things are expat experiences made.

In my experience, living only has beenfits over visiting when your daily routines encapsulate the norms of the country. Remember that many things that we see as ?better? are that just because they?re our cultural norms. Challenging those norms is the crux of the expat experience.

I?d also not overestimate the language benefits on short stays, especially without school immersion. Unless it?s maintained, it?s forgotten. Of course, many language experts say that there is a benefit to just being exposed to different languages at a young age (i.e. that makes it easier to learn them) but how big a benefit it is I don?t know.

One of your major wants seems to be paring down to fewer possessions, yet at the same time you have a huge connection to your home. You just seem very conflicted- on the one hand being a real home body, on the other wanting this nomadic, free range existence, which I dont think is consistent with the lives that most expats live anyway (most people who pack light end up spending most of their first year in Ikea). I?m just worried that this move is not going to give you what you actually want from it.

My cousin lives near Frankfurt, and when we visited recently we thought it was a really very pretty area, and as a city seemed to be fairly easy to get from the centre to really quite nice small towns/villages. My cousin is half German and her dh is German but she still struggled a bit with integrating. I suspect out of the city not speaking German might be a significant handicap, so that would be my no1 priority. English is a second language to many, but I think it would be a real barrier to making friends or feeling confident, especially with a small child.

I'd also watch out for the idea that moving abroad is good for children. I don't think it makes any difference at all to a toddler unless it creates stress, and I'm not totally convinced for older children - my two found moving very disruptive, and three years down the lines are quickly forgetting life in England. I think that you have to be sure that it is a positive move for your whole family, especially bearing in mind that fundamentally your new life will mostly be as ordinary as your current one. That's not to say you shouldn't do it, just watch out for rose tinted glasses, IME the more grounded you are the less difficult you may find the move.

I second other people that bringing your familiar possessions with you can be really important, but I think that's quite a personal thing. The one thing I would say is do not rent your home fully furnished. If you do decide to leave stuff in the UK put it into storage.

Can vouch for the 'name' situation. Friend of mind had to prove "Paige" was a real name and gender appropriate for her child.
Healthcare in Germany is excellent - had lots of scans of ds as all the equipment is at doctor's office. Also chose a midwife (self-employed) who was then contacted when I was at the hospital and she stays for the birth, aftercare and does all the home visits when you are released. It was great as I knew her from the ante natal classes and trusted her.
Re language - everthing from pre to post natal care was in German and you will need to get to grips with this for visits to paediatrician etc.
I agree with real - for your son to learn the language he needs to go to Kindergarten. My son spoke no German before he went because all his time was spent with me or at a toddler group/baby gymnastics and I could translate for him

Sue Embarrassingly I have no idea what pain relief I had! I asked the midwife again after the birth and she told me but I see to be unable to retain that sort of information (was a fairly quick birth though so not much time to think about these things). Epidurals are certainly available though, as well as whatever I had via drip. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable (and less forgetful) will be able to advise you further.

I was the same as Thatis when we moved over in that the first year/18 months were very full of ups and downs - a lot of homesickness, not really getting to know many people etc, but things have slowly gotten better. Maybe it will be different for you if you know you will only be here for a specific period. As others have said, it might be hard without the language, although most Germans speak very good English and there is a huge American community in this area - don't rely on everyone else speaking English though!

(If it helps I can give you the details of my gynaecologist for your ante-natal care - she is American so a lot of my ante-natal care was in English, but the few times I ended up in hospital during pregnancy it was all in German).

Lifebegins I think it depends where you are planning on moving to but I'd say the Frankfurt area is definitely cheaper than central London. The more rural Taunus area is quite pricey and Wiesbaden is (I think) possibly a little more expensive than Frankfurt but it all depends on which area you choose etc.

Feel free to pm me if you want to!

Hi Sue. I'm also in Germany and have given birth here, though I had to have a cs.

I sympathize with your leanings towards non-conformism, but RealLife makes a good point about integration being key to getting the most out of a prolonged stay abroad. Someone else has said that there are a lot of Germans with alternative views and, as long as you are living in a largish place, you should be able to find people who share your outlook on life. Maybe you could see your experience as embracing the alternate side of Germany - look for a Montessori or a Waldorf kindergarten for example.

In my experience in a small town there are endless classes and events that I could take 2.8yo DD to. When she was very little we did PEKiP, which is a course for babies where they experience complete freedom of movement by being naked and we parents learnt ways to encourage them to do things independently and at their own pace. DD's kindergarten claim to do things like barefoot walks over dew-soaked grass/in the snow (with the older kids) and even DD's group of 2yos regularly make tea from apple peel or fresh herbs. That may sound a bit random, but I'm trying to make the point that Germans view kindergarten very differently to how Brits see nursery. Children here start school at 6 and there seems to be a strong desire to protect them from formal learning until at least their pre-school year.

Thanks for the info on softplay, good to know, Darrowby.

RealLife, thanks for your thoughts. The primary reason for the move is my husband's career. He has been offered a great position in a company he is very interested in, good pay. He could find something in the UK, but we want to shake ourselves up a bit. I know I sound a bit anxious, and I am, but I want to feel the fear and do it anyway, and if that initially means dipping my toes in slowly rather than diving in, that makes it feel slightly less daunting and doable.

The kindergarten thing, I will look into when we are there, but our ethos of child-raising is that we want to do that ourselves. I am not all for lumping children together in a group of same-aged children, just because they are the same age and that's just what happens. I don't like the restrictions of school, the conformity, the limits of one teacher to so many pupils, we want a more tailored education for our child, that appreciates their personal interests, as we believe this makes for better learning, more fun, a different outlook. Anyway, that's a few years off, DS is only 16mo. If HomeEd/Unschooling was illegal in the UK, we'd be leaving too.
I don't expect to come back fluent in German after two years, but decent conversational would be good.
I do like my home comforts, but I also love travel, and new experiences. I am hoping that by keeping a property in the UK, and some belongings, but also going overseas for longer stints than your average city break, gives us the best of both worlds. And provides excitement and adventure for the DC, as well as some semblance of a homelife of where they are from, a chance to spend decent time with other family members too.

The possessions thing has just coincided with us feeling that we have too much clutter here anyway, now that DS's toys are taking over, we look around and see so much 'stuff' we don't need or use, and wishing for a simpler life, less attached to material possessions.

nooka, I am definitely going to try learning the language. I have already started trying to learn a few words before we go, I REALLY don't want to be one of those people who come back, and haven't picked up at least enough to get by. DS is so young he'll not even be fluent in English after 18 months, but he'll have a few words, and I think it's a good start. This is the age where they take soooo much in. DS is a happy, adventurous soul, I do think he'll thrive, adapt, he is very secure, but if not, then we will revise our options.

:) Gator, DS's birth is a bit of a blur to me, so I can perfectly understand you can't remember the name of the pain relief. I am just intrigued as to why they don't use gas and air. Well, like I said, I am not even PG yet, but should I need a HCP contact, I will be in touch, thank you!

silken, thank you for your input re the kinder/school thing. We will see how we go, and take it from there.

Sue for what it's worth Kindergarten is not a group of same age children, I think I am right in saying the mixed age group approach is universal here (though again others will correct me if I'm wrong - rural Bavarian experience).

Forest Kindergartens are also a concept that might interest you.

I understand that you are coming from an unschooling perspective, it's just that if your child picking up/ having meaningful exposure to the language is important to you it is unlikely to happen in any meaningful way living with 2 English speaking parents and not attending any kind of group without you.

However as your dc is only 16 months and you are aiming to be away only 18 months maximum you will be returning to the UK before your dc is standard Kindergarten age anyway, so it's a bit theoretical .

Thanks, Thatisnotitatall. We will look into it. Not ruling it out, but initially anyway, DS is still young.
We may end up bring there longer than 18 months, if the initial project goes well and we like it, just going to see how it goes.

Thatis Both DD's kiga and the one where I teach English group the kids according to age. Two of the other kigas here definitely have mixed-age groups, I don't know how the others are structured. I would presume in Frankfurt there would be more choice than either of us have .

Sue I probably share some of your reservations about the benefits of early institutionalised education. I was very reluctant for DD to start kindergarten at 2, but in the interests of giving me and her the best balance of everything it was the right thing to do in this town, for us. There are definitely downsides to being at kiga - like the reduced amount of one-on-one communication with adults (DD's German has become more confident, but less intelligible ) and the impossibilty of becoming engrossed in playing with a toy when there are 14 other 2 yos intending to snatch it from you.

I don't know anyway what the situation is in Frankfurt. Afaik it's not usually easy in the west to get a place at kiga before age 3 and even then it's normally only mornings. (Happy to be corrected - it's very different here in the east!)

It sounds like an incredibly exciting opportunity your family are being given and it sounds like that if you don't take the plunge and do it you'll always wonder what if...

I do agree in many of the things that Reallife says however and before you go I would urge you not to get caught up in the romanticism of it all and be prepared for just how hard it will be at times. We are currently on our 2nd overseas assignment (both have been in English speaking and so "easy" countries), I am incredibly thankful for the opportunities we have been given, the places we have been: places we had not even heard of before, and by the way my view of the world has been challenged and expanded. But...there are times when you feel so incredibly lost, when nothing in the way they do things in this new place makes sense and when you miss out on important things happening to those at home, well I'm sure you can imagine. I think it is a big mistake to try and compare traveling in your early 20's to the experience of living abroad. They are not the same thing and you will struggle if you expect them to be.

Regarding your belongings I also think it is a big mistake to leave them behind. They may only be things but in many ways they tell the story of your life and connect you to places, people and memories - very important when everything else is changing. They will also be more important than you think for your child. My children have always squealed with delight when our things have arrived (even when they have been as young as yours is). Not just their toys but also our furniture. Don't forget, that sofa was the sofa Grandma read stories to them on. (You see what I mean.)

Regarding having a second baby, I had my third child abroad and prior to going I searched in vain for the ability to have the same sort of births as I had had in the UK. It wasn't possible, the search for having a UK style birth in a different country was too difficult and adding unnecessary stress. In the end I did as local women did and had a very medicalised birth. And, I might add, a very positive experience. Part of living abroad is doing things in the way of your host country and accepting things how they are, some will be better than the UK, some will be worse. I think your plans of returning home to give birth etc could be very disruptive for your family when, given you may only be there for 18 months, you are going to be still settling in. (It takes that long, possibly longer for you as you have the language issues). Your child is going to have done a lot of adjusting with the move and will have a lot of adjusting to do with a new sibling. To then throw in a unpredictable stint back to the UK simply so you can have the birth of your choice, I feel is a little selfish. As long as they, and you, get through the birth healthy and happy, your baby won't care whether they were born in hospital, home or against a tree in the Black Forest!

From things you have said it sounds as though you have a sensitive and nurturing side to your character, I just want you to be realistic about how the day to day realities of it are. Best of luck with it all!

Yep, mixed age groups at Kindergarten are the norm. My son started at 3 with about 18-20 kids in the class (2 teachers) aged from 3 to 6.
I was a bit dubious at first, but it worked really well.

Thanks Gator, I probably will PM you in the next couple of days. As soon as I've got a child-free moment to think.

Sue we are looking at a long-term move. We've been "planning" to leave the UK for a few years, but we've now been given the final push by DD almost reaching school age here. We want to go before she does, and give her a chance to learn the new language before she starts formal schooling in a new country. We will definitely look for Kindergarten for her to help her with the language and also because she is quite shy, so she doesn't feel confident with people who she doesn't see regularly. The occasional meet-up with other children wouldn't suit her at all.

I will also be looking for lots of mother-toddler groups to go to, as having small DC is a great way to make new friends, and personally I believe children need social contact with other children in order to develop normal social skills. I myself am also quite shy, and in my experience the Germans are more likely to expect you to make the first move in trying to socialise rather than going out of their way to get new people involved. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this negatively, just saying that the culture is different. I'm sure others will correct me if I'm over-generalising from my own experiences.

We are hoping to rent for 1-2 years whilst we make sure that we like the area, and DH's job is right for him, then we intend to buy. Our biggest problem is working out what salary we can accept as a minimum. London is very expensive, so when he is now offered something that is less than half what he was on previously, then obviously we have to stop and think about what that would mean in day-to-day living terms. We expect DH to earn less because he will be looking for a job that will mean less hours than the 50/week he's currently working.

My advice re. language, is to learn as much as you can before you get there, because the more you can already manage in everyday transactions (shopping, directions, buying tickets, weather, about your DS etc.), the more people will make the effort to speak German to you rather than automatically switching to English. Which of course makes it rather difficult to practise the language.

silken, good to hear your experiences of kiga, and Shanghai, thanks for the clarification. One adult to ten children does not sound like my kind of thing. Am still rather put off!

feet, it is exciting. Though very nerve-wracking at the same time. It will be a wrench, extricating ourselves from here, but I do think it will be good to not languish, and to challenge ourselves. I am expecting it to be hard.

Will definitely take DS's toys and books, and my favourite chair (DS's favourite really, as I still nurse him in it, rocking away!), but the sofa, our sofa is huge, and I am not very invested in it. The rug though, I think we'll take the rug!

If I have to have a medicalised birth because of complications personal to me/babies, I will, and I will be grateful such care exists, but it really does not appeal for a standard pregnancy and birth. I had such an awesome midwife with my homebirth, I know I'll feel better if I can have her again, in our current home, but of course, a happy, healthy baby at the end is the main thing. I am still about the no gas and air thing!

40, may I ask what your reasons are for leaving the UK, to settle in Germany? Just out of interest.
Hope you can work out the finances and get things to work. We are also in London at the moment.
I will start learning some German now. Just found this link that you might be interested in, may be good for me the little ones: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/language_bilingualism/1402416-links-to-German-kids-programmes.

Well it sounds as though decision made! Congratulations, in many ways you've done one of the hardest bits.

Yep, thank you, decision made, all a bit fast, but what the heck! :)

Sue I've lived abroad before, and I never intended to come back and stay in the UK for so long (I've been here 11 years now). I find life in other countries much more interesting, and I feel much more mentally challenged by "living in a different language". Obviously it will be different now as I am no longer young, free and single. So that's one reason for choosing Germany - it's a known quantity, and it's relatively near my relatives, so the children can see them regularly.

Ah, thanks for the reply. I love it here in London, but there is so much else of the world to see, so off we go! :)