Geneva - fancy playing devil's advocate? - info Pretty Please - big decision to make!

[justonemorejingle]

Hello
I know if you've lived here a few years you are probably sick of dispensing advice on Geneva, but I'm after more off-beat information.

APOLOGIES if you replied on previous thread I almost hijacked.

I'm just recovering from an overseas posting that I didn't enjoy. Great lifestyle, nice house etc etc.... but just wasn't happy there, SO - don't want to throw another 4 years of my life down the pan, don't care how pristine and beautiful a place may be!

I can think of lots of positive reasons to go, so just need to cast out final doubts, need all the negatives so I know what I'm getting in to.

I don't mind if your replies are short, here are some questions

1)How difficult is it to get a job as a British expat? (Don't speak French)

2)So, how dull exactly is it? For example, if you are a trailing spouse, what exactly goes on, how do people spend the time of day, what is there to do?
International women's clubs meetings? MahJong? Bridge?
What about volunteering, or learning something new.

3)What kind of atmosphere/vibe is there when you're walking around - is it all offices and residential, or are there 'high streets', with shops, cafes as we'd expect in England? (or just very traumatised from crap previous posting).

Do you have to go out all the time looking perfectly groomed? Are people up-tight/reserved, snooty? (not really)

4)Is there an active social scene, if not locally, at least among expats?
What is the typical demographic of expats? (More senior level couples, not so many small children, or a bit of everything).

5. Never mind all the positive things (I've heard all of those), what's the one thing you will not miss once you leave?

I really hope I get some replies, loosing precious sleep over this decision!

Drip feeding and shamelessly self-bumping!

Hi, cant help on Geneva, cause Im in Zurich and I have heard the French Part it a bit different from the German part, but have you tried www.englishforum.ch might help you with your decision.

Thank you! I'll definitely look it up. I'm just not ready to go on another posting I think...!

I love Geneva - hope that helps!!

Nice to hear aj! Sorry to be nosey but do you work there? Do you have small children? Would be interesting to hear your perspective!

Sorry - I was just being flippant! Have visited Geneva a dozen or so times, and love it. The right mix of Swiss and international feel about the place. Don't know how relevant this might be, but friends of our lived in Switzerland for four years or so, with three young daughters. At the time - and things may have changed over the last decade! - they loved living there, but felt that females tended to be treated as second class citizens, which was why they didn't want their daughters growing up in Switzerland. I know that without this, they would have happily settled there permanently.

Good luck with your decision making.

ooh, what an interesting point, just as I'm going through a feminist epiphany phase

Hi,
I'm in Geneva, and I won't miss fact that women are second class citizens. But, great for children, good quality of life. Unless you're living in the centre (and even then) I miss the buzz of a really vibrant city. But I'd choose economic stability and safety of my children over that.
Oh, and yes, it can be dull. You have to be proactive!

I've just left Geneva after 5 very happy years there. I've got 3 kids and felt it was a lovely environment for them to grow up in. It always felt safe and the emphasis was on an outdoors lifestyle. We skied every weekend in the winter (45mins drive to some great ski slopes in France), we used the lake loads in the summer. It was a perfect place to be and I really miss it. Great expat community. I didn't ever feel like a second class citizen. Lovely food and restaurants. The Swiss are very 'closed' but we did meet some nice local people. Mixed mainly with English speakers though. Weather was great - far drier climate than I was expecting. Very expensive though. Hope this helps. We were advised to live Rive Gauche (left side of the lake) as gets more sun and is generally nicer.

Hi Littlefamily Mummy, thanks!
It increasingly looks like there are more positives than negatives (damn!).

Mummy I spent 3 years being proactive on last posting. That's exactly what's putting me off another posting. Now we're in UK, great school, everything I want, it's hard to leave that.

We are leaving Geneva soon, but hopefully I can give you a bit of advice to help your decision making.

1. Getting a job as a British expat is easier than for Americans as visa is less hassle. There are a lot of international companies where English is the office language so I don't think it would be a problem (depending on your profession of course). The biggest block is childcare, as it is very expensive here.

1. Dull compared to London or NY. Ok for a few years I would say and plenty to compensate. There are international women's clubs, and they are quite active as so many women don't work.

1. There is a "high street" but shopping is either eyewateringly expensive or cheap crap. Nothing between H&M/C&A and Armani/Hermes really, except expensive boutiques. You don't have to be perfectly groomed, but the women generally are smarter dressed than in UK. Swiss are quite reserved, but friendly.

1. Expat social scene - yes, but don't wait to be accepted into the local community. Despite having our DC in local schools, we have never been invited into local people's homes.

1. What will I miss? The mountains, the lake, the weekends, the trips to Italy and France. The markets.

I would not like to settle here permanently, but it is a good life for a few years.

Feel free to PM me if you want more info, and have a look on my profile for my blog about living in Geneva.

Thank you Lindor! Your blog looks interesting if only I had the time to sit and browse at leisure!
I think that def. gives me enough to go on for now, it's not as if the job is a certainty so don't want to get ahead of myself.
If nearer the time it becomes a real possibility then I may well take you up on your offer and PM you.
good luck with your move!
(Are you not missing living in the UK then?)

Thanks. Would love to move back (and am going to have a couple of months to try it out) but with the job situation as it is, it is unlikely that DH would find something in Scotland.

Hi there,
Currently in Geneva, working first time mum-to-be. Firstly on the positive side: the location is great - I love the skiing, love the mountains, the countryside and the lakes. Services are generally great, although you do pay for them. From what I have heard it is a great place to bring up children (seems so, just not talking from experience). Public transport is quite cheap if you get an annual pass (around 750 CHF I think for the year) but to be honest, the main city is so small that I walk everywhere (another great thing). Geneva is great socially....... if you can afford it (see point one below!). I have some great expat friends and I have a few Swiss friends, but it is true that the groups tend not to mix as much - much worse out in small villages though. The climate is great and there are some really nice places to visit. Hardly any traffic if you are driving (a bit of commuter traffic coming into/out of Geneva but not for trips out etc).

OK - now for the negatives (and I am putting these down without nuancing them - it is not always as bad but at least it gives you a worst-case picture) - and I would like to stress that in balance, I really do like living here (but also have a fab job, which I know does contribute to how I feel about the place).

1. Geneva is very expensive. We do most of our shopping over the border in France and it makes a big difference. Going out is not cheap - expect to pay 70 - 150 CHF for an ordinary dinner for two. Cinema tickets are 19 CHF for adults. Medical insurance (compulsory) is a minimum of 330 CHF a month (check out comparis.ch). Third party car insurance for a 2001 estate is 1,000 CHF!! Expect to pay around 2,500 CHF - 3,000 CHF a month in rent for a two bedroom flat in town. That said, the salaries are much higher if compared to the UK. It is just difficult not to automatically convert into sterling and think OMG! We go out occasionally but not that often to be honest (except for skiing and mountain activities).

1. Child care (more from colleagues with children) is a nightmare - women are not expected to work and the system is not set up to cater for that: anything from school hours (no school on wednesdays, long lunch breaks where children are expected to go home for lunch). You even pay more in taxes if married and both working compared to single living together and both working! (but quite a bit less if married and only one working).

1. Institutionalised xenophobia verging on racism - particularly noticeable as I work with (highly qualified and talented) Africans. Just take a look at the difference in reaction from the border guards on flights coming in from the UK (most countries don't have passport checks because they are all in Schengan, but UK isn't so there are checks still) - if the face with the passport is coloured there are disproportionately long checks compared to white faces (even non-EU people). The Swiss People's Party was the one with the political adverts a few years ago that showed the cartoon white sheep physically kicking out a cartoon black sheep from a map of Switzerland. My black colleagues have found it much more difficult to find somewhere to rent - even when on very good salaries (and by the way, finding anywhere to rent in Geneva is a bit of a nightmare anyhow). Up until a few years ago the local commune got to vote on whether or not applicants could get citizenship - statistically a much lower number of names with Balkan endings were accepted in.

1. It can be boring - there isn't that much of an art scene or good concerts (especially at reasonable prices), but there are good places to go.

I echo checking out englishforum.ch, although there are many more people on the threads from the Zurich area. Glocals.com is a great site - an online forum that is set up to encourage people to meet up and do things. Also good for questions, classifieds and generally finding out what is going on.

Hope that helps - happy to answer on more specific things if you want to PM :)

Fretfree Wow thanks! Great answer and all the things I wanted to hear!
We're still waiting to find out about the job, at the moment it is not looking that likely anymore, which I'm kind of pleased about, but still, one never knows....
Good luck with baby to come!
If there is anything else though I'll be sure to PM you!

Fretfree
DH's new colleague is Australian of Syrian heritage and his wife is English but mixed race (have forgotten where her family is from) both are quite dark skinned. We had them over for dinner recently and I warned her that she may well be stopped more often than we ever were when crossing the border. It will be interesting to see if my supposition was correct.

We always joke that if you want to smuggle something over the border, you need to get a black friend to drive over the border in front of you. I would bet CHF 1000 that he would get stopped rather than us.

I have never been stopped and had my passport or documents checked but have often seen black people being checked by the police.

Tbh, I don't know if I would want to live here if I were not very Caucasian looking. I can imagine how difficult it is. Your poor colleagues.