Natation, Longtime, Portofino et al! Advice on Brussels please...

[themotherofallmums]

Hello

We would like to seek your advice on life in Brussels please.

Our situation is this: we might have the opportunity of moving to Brussels with work and so, before embarking on the application process, we want to do as much research as possible. We have assiduously read all your previous very useful posts on life in Belgium and tried to take it all in, but there are bound to be things we repeat and ask again so I apologise for this in advance.

We have 2 children, at the time of moving they would be about 4 and 1.5yo. At the moment we live in a French-speaking part of the world and our eldest already attends a local nursery and speaks French (not yet fluently but, given more time, probably well on the way). We would probably opt for the local public school system, as one of the main reasons for pursuing Brussels would be the opportunity to give the DC bi-lingual language skills.

We've looked into residential areas and tend to like the look of WSP from the descriptions we read. We like living in leafy residential areas, not too far to town and the benefits of the city but not right in the heart of the metropolis. The job would be located near the Parc du Woluwe and a fairly easy commute would be preferred, metro or even walking. We would prefer to keep our housing budget to somewhere between Euro 1300-1500, but we are looking on Immoweb up to Euro 1700 on the understanding that you can probably knock a bit off.

My initial questions are these:

1. We reckon monthly salary might be somewhere in the region of Euro 3300 or thereabouts. This doesn't include the child tax allowances you've previously written about, nor any child benefit. (The job would be on a local contract basis, not ex-pat.) How does this monthly salary sound, with 2 children and housing, bills to cover? Natation, I've seen you mention elsewhere having to pay maintenance costs on your rental property, does this mean if something goes wrong with a property and general upkeep, painting etc?

2. We gather our eldest DC would go into Maternelle from 4-6 yo before starting at primary. We haven't yet rung round all the maternelles in WSP or other communes, which we plan to do first week back in January. Do you have any advice/comments on specific maternelles in the WSP area (or other neighbouring communes)? Ones specifically to avoid or others you would highly recommend? If we don't manage to get into the maternelle of our choice, how difficult is it to transfer to the primary of your choice when age 6 comes around?

We are bound to have more follow-up questions, many thanks for your help in the meantime.

Parc de la Woluwe is in the Chant d'Oiseau area of Woluwe St Pierre (1150) but is also quite near Auderghem (1160) and Etterbeek (1040) and Woluwe St Lambert (1200) but the latter 2 might not be leafy enough. For WSP, you should be able to get a 3 bed house 120-130m2 max for ?1200 a month, for Auderghem, you might be able to get the same 3 bed for ?1100 a month. Here's 2 houses as examples not that far either of them from Parc de la Woluwe .. yes WSP is expensive but not as expensive for a 2 or 3 bed as people would first imagine, prices have certainly dipped here and it's a renters' market and you can negociate a lot more than a few years ago.

Auderghem Beaulieu metro
www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.Estate.cfm?IdBien=3443710&xgallery=gallery&xpage=1

WSP Ave Parmentier 256, just one bus stop from me 36 bus "Mareyde"
www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.Estate.cfm?IdBien=3219346&xgallery=gallery&xpage=1

Is that 3300 net per month? That would be enough to cover ?1200 rent as your child benefit for 2 children would also be ?247 per month.

Yes you are responsible for an awful lot more than you would be expected to pay in the UK for maintaining a house. You must service the boiler once a year, clean any chimney, clean gutters, any damage to floors and walls must either be fixed or "compensation" paid on leaving your house, how much compensation is partly down to the avarice of your landlord. Good and fair landlords are a rarity here, if you listen to expats.

School starts at 2 1/2 here and if your daughter were 2 now, she'd already be in the 3rd year of maternelle called 2e maternelle (acceuil, 1e, 2e, 3e maternelle). Most maternelles are either in the same school as primaires here, called "fondamentale" or are adjoining primaires. Only 1 maternelle in WSP has no corresponding primaire. There are 11 maternelles in WSP. In Auderghem, there are 8 fondamentales, no maternelles without primaires. If you want to swap school between maternelle and primaire at age 5/6, priority always goes to children already in 3e maternelle, you have to take whatever is left in places, it's not very predictable but harder to get into some schools than others, whether maternelle or primaire level.

Here's a map of nearly all maternelles / primaires in Brussels. There is one school near Parc de la Woluwe missing off the map, the stand alone "Ecole du Bémel" in WSP which has no corresponding primaire, very near parc de la Woluwe.

batchgeo.com/map/6972012203999a3df3a7a5fb2902bcb7

PS that house on Ave Parmentier, you can see it on google street view, it's next door to a convenience store, very handy, the local fondamentale, a 5 minute walk away, has just been put into containers literally after almost falling down, it was condemned by the Fire Service in October - great little school called Jean 23 Parmentier, it's in a most beautiful setting in Parc Parmentier which is near Parc de la Woluwe. There are also 3 other schools a 1km max walk away.

IF this house is where the description says it is, it is near "de Burbure" 39 tram stop which goes down to Parc de la Woluwe. Pretty good price at ?1150 oer month. It's in the commune of Wezembeek Oppem (1970) just outside Brussels region but just like a suburb of Brussels. There is a superb local school a few minutes walk called St Georges. Another commune worth looking at is Kraainem (1950) in the central area of the commune which is also on the 39 tram route. You can also get 3 beds here for ?1200 or less. Both Kraainem and Wezembeek-Oppem are leafy and residential and all French schools known to be good.

www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.estate.cfm?idbien=3371985&ongletactif=2&jpgnameinp=3371985_5.jpg&xincludedetail=2&xgallery=gallery&mycurrent_section=Rent&xbg=N#onglet

You are in the best hands with natation, themotherofallmums as she has just moved into another rental house so has lots of recent information and is a mine of information re schools. I don't really have anything to add! If I had the choice of where to live now, I would choose Woluwe St Pierre/Stockel/Wezembeek-Oppem so these houses would seem ideal. The Auderghem one must be very close to us. Choice of school not so good here.

Themotherofallmums, if your job is situated north of Parc de la Woluwe on boulevard de la Woluwe, that area is part in Woluwe St Lambert (1200) and it still fits your leafy and suburban criteria, the eastern side of Woluwe St Lambert is good too and very convenient for metro, sports centre, shops, you might be able get a 3 bed there for 1200 euro per month too, can't find any currently on Immoweb though. Again plenty of schools to choose from around there.

Here's what happened to Jean 23 Parmentier, the "container" school in the beautiful park. I'd still be happy with this school, our swimming club has its annual dinner there and we love it over there.

[[http://www.telebruxelles.be/portail/emissions/les-journaux/le-journal/16476-premier-jour-dans-les-classes-conteneurs]

Thank you very much to you both for your replies.

Yes to clarify the net monthly income would be approx. Euro 3300 which you seem to think would be fine to live on. We're not big spenders, just like to be comfortable, roof over our heads, food on the table, and the odd treat or two etc.

It is interesting to hear that the French-speaking schools of Kraainem and Wezembeek-Oppem would also be an option. Should we end up coming to Brussels, it would probably be a good idea to look at other communes and not put all our eggs in the WSP basket, so to speak.

When you say Jean 23 Parmentier has been put into containers, do you mean they are using portacabins as classrooms whilst renovation work takes place on the actual school? Grateful for your clarification please.

Another question we had, looking at the map of Brussels, Stockel appears to under the flight path of Brussels airport. Does this cause any nuisance from noise?

I was glad to see from previous posts that you think there are plenty of extra-curricular activities there for schoolchildren. Although our DS is only 3 rising 4 and due to start in Reception next year, I have a feeling he will be into his sports, and the school we have in mind in the UK would cater very well for this. If we come to Brussels, whilst I understand these clubs don't take place so much in schools, it was good to hear there is plenty available. If he does have a sporting enthusiasm (or whatever he's enthusiastic about), I would like to be able to provide for this.

Also, do you happen to know if there is any mini-rugby aimed at children in Brussels please?

Thanks again.

Oops sorry - just saw your link about Jean 23 after my last post - pls ignore that question - many thanks!

Here's Jean 23 at the point of it being condemned in October..... guess it will take a couple of years at least to re-build the school, especially since the park is now protected. I haven't been past to see if they have really pulled down the old school as they said they would last month. This school also has an agreement with a nearby outdoor extra-curricular activities provider in the park so that the children go there on wednesday afternoons rather than vegetate in "garderie" like at other schools when parents work and cannot collect the children for wednesday afternoon sport / music / art classes.

www.telebruxelles.be/portail/emissions/les-journaux/le-journal/16106-ecole-parmentier-evacuee

There are typically plenty of optional in-school lunch time / after school activities such as dancing, cooking, model making, football, these cost typically 100 euro extra per activity per school year. All children swim in primaire too and most 2e and 3e maternelle children swim one week in 2 as well, plus 2 sessions of PE a week. But for team sports, serious swimming lessons, music lesson etc etc, these take place outside school. There are 2 English speaking rugby clubs running under 7s teams and both not too far from WSP, that's Brussels Celtic and British School of Brussels (don't have to be a pupil at the school), then WSP has its own French speaking club called Kikubu who train in the Stockel area, then there's 2 of the top Belgian clubs also in Brussels called Kituro in Schaerbeek and Boitsfort in Watermael-Boitsfort. Your choice is really too much when it comes to children's activities and most are very cheap or even free.

Yes Stockel area of WSP is right on the flight path of one of the runways of Zaventem airport. You hear the flights and see the planes low whenever they use that runway which is not every day. We are on the edge of Stockel, we used to be right in the middle, a 1.5km move has made a major difference in that we no longer hear or see the planes so much, and when we lived in the middle of Stockel, it never bothered us. It's one of the most expensive places to live in Brussels, so the planes certainly don't put people off when buying there. Parts of Kraainem and Wezembeek-Oppem are right under the flight path of that runway too - Stockel is in the communes of WSP, Wezembeek and Kraainem, although most people think of Stockel being part of WSP!

www.britishschool.be/uploads/fmanager/sports/rugby/rugby_club_brochure_may2010.pdf

brusselsceltic.com/site/rugby-school/introduction.html

www.kibubu.be/

www.brclub.org/ecole

www.kituro.be/u7.htm

Thank you ever so much for all the info and links that you have provided. We're very grateful. We hope you don't mind if we come back with more queries, but also if anything springs to your mind, please post. The more information the better!

Thank you.

Don't forget also that a Belgian salary is 13.9x? months. You get the extra months at Christmas and again in May/June, but only after having worked a year do you get these extra months. You also tend to overpay your taxes, because they are "predicted" in your salary before you submit your tax return when you can reduce your tax bill by offsetting salary against child care for example. I don't earn a huge amount, but last year got given back ?500 and my friend gets back around ?3k as he has a bigger salary - you spend the year collecting tax reduction certificates so you can reduce your tax bill. Many people also get company cars here or alternatively a large percentage back on public transport costs, some get hospitalisation insurance, I think everyone get meal vouchers you can use against your food shopping, some even get eco-vouchers to use against a new bike or new AAA rated freezer for example. So it isn't easy to work out a full monetary value of a salary here.

Finally, the general rule for renting, the landlord might ask for proof of income 3 times the value of the rent. You will need 2 months rent to deposit as a guarantee and don't attach too much belief you'll ever get this deposit back as landlords can be mean and try and keep as much for themselves and even bill you for damages on top. We were very careful with our last house and bent over backwards to help our landlord and we tolerated him breaking contract by letting himself in the house for a whole month without permission before we left and even put the advert on Immoweb for him, yet still he managed to get 1/3 of the deposit in damages and was extremely unpleasant after that as he obviously wanted more. I really like our new landlord, but I am prepared to be far more cautious and realistic about human nature this time and am expecting him to show himself as a greedy shite at some point in our tenancy.

:o @ expecting him to show himself as a greedy shite

Thanks Natation. We were simultaneously horrified by your description of your landlord's avarice, and amused by the succint character description! It seems a shame landlords have to behave in this way, when Brussels must be a pretty good rental market for them, with such an international, transient population and no shortage of customers. It seems odd that this sort of thing is allowed under Belgian (EU?) law, but then again, as landlords ourselves onces, having almost had to take a letting agent to the Ombudsman here in the UK, we know how badly regulated the market is in the UK too. I think you're attitude is right though, expect the worst and you can't be (too) disappointed although, if you're a naturally optimistic person, it's still pretty depressing when someone lives up to your low expectations!

You make a good point about the rental only being one third of net monthly salary, I meant to ask you about this. Is this really literally enforced, so on Euro 3300, you really do have to rent something for 1100 for instance?

Thanks again, and happy new year to all.

sorry unintended appalling grammar - "your" etc.

Tired, and can't even blame a new year's hangover!!

To add to natation's fab advice....

We were never asked what our salary was when renting, however we have rented both times from a property company.

For the deposit, ING offered us an "guarantee" account, whereby no real money changes hands - we just pay an annual fee for the priviledge - so maybe worth asking about.

Standard leases tend to be 3-6-9 years. So in effect, if you leave within the first 3 years you have to pay 1/2/3 months rent as a penalty. After 3 years, you only need give 3 months notice. Leases are registered with a central agency. You are much more protected though than the UK. Generally the LL can only give you notice during the period of the lease if he needs to live in the house himself.

Another important point is that you need to work for a year before you are entitled to your legal days of holiday entitlement. So for the first year, you only get bank holidays and any "extra-legal" days that your company might offer. We get about an extra 10 depending on how the bank holidays fall. My company also let me take unpaid holiday during that first year.

There is LOADS for kids to do - starting from about 2.5 yo, lots of clubs and holiday clubs. Dd has done cooking, swimming, gym, dancing etc and is off to do a week of tennis lessons next week. All clubs/activities/childcare is tax deductible - the various organisations give you an "attestation" each year which you send in with your tax return.

Remember that tax is very high! So you would be handing over roughly half of your gross salary in tax/social security, minus a bit for the children. This came as quite a shock to me! Double check the net pay estimation!

Re. schools - Kraainem and Wezembeek are "Communes a facilities" - you have to live in one to access the French school system there - a great shame to me as the school in W-O looks lovely and is closer to my house. I have several friends with kids at Ecole Diabolo in Kraainem and they are all very happy.

There are loads us of here now! Longtime has a spreadsheet and we have a private FB group.

For 1/3 income rule when renting, well we tried to rent one house recently and the landlord did indeed request the previous 3 months salary statements to check we earned (just) enough to cover 3 times the value of the rent before we were even considered as tenants, whereas with the landlord we eventually rented from, the letting agent also asked for proof of the last 3 months salary statements, but I doubt the landlord even bothered to look at the proof - he agreed to rent to us immediately, based on his opinion of us after 5 minutes, it took some effort to get this landlord's signature to open the bank account to put in our security deposit as he is so laid back about this renting malarky, see he is NOT Belgian! I would have the proof available, as someone is likely to ask for it when renting, it's not obligatory but an unwritten "rule" and in fact it's quite a wise one for both sides.

The best place to ask questions about renting in Belgium is on www.xpats.com where you will meet horrible HAL who is some relocation agent who cuts and pastes sometimes useful advice and sometimes answers rentals questions like a true belge - you'll see what I mean if you take a look.

I am just marking a spot here, so that I can refer back to the great advice being given. I am hoping that, not this summer but summer 2013, I will be in a position to go to Brussels (just lost out last summer), when DD will be 7 (would be just finished 1st class here, after junior and senior infants) and I was also thinking of using local schools for her. This is the most useful background information I have yet found on the actual "living in Brussels" aspect.

Actually, if any Brussels based folk are around, would you have advice on going to the Etterbeek area? Or somewhere relatively close by?

I am hoping that I would be able to get somewhere close to the Justice Lipsius building/Rue Froissart (as a general landmark) so I could mainly walk everywhere. And to get into a french-speaking rather than flemish-speaking local school.

You have to be careful in Etterbeek because there are some nice parts and some not so nice parts. If you get somewhere on the border of Woluwe St Pierre that would be better. You wouldn't be able to walk but you would be very close to the metro. Auderghem follows that metro line as does Woluwe St Pierre/Stockel.

I'll pm you...

And it sounds like these days, you should source your school place sooner rather than later....

Hi there Biddypop

I'd advise you to start looking for schools for September 2013 right now, even if the plan to move to Brussels is not definite. Enrolments will start from September 2012 and run through to April 2013 (most schools to their own enrolments, a few areas have centralised enrolments but it's the exception) and the more sought after schools tend to have one enrolment day and they tend to be earlier on in the preceding school year.

Rented housing is pretty plentiful in Brussels, especially in the areas east and south of Brussels where the more "middle class" international population in the main lives. I'd do a bit of research into areas and public transport to them from Justus Lipsus building before trying to narrow down an area search. Some areas are more expensive than others, some have great parking problems if a car is an essential (public transport is excellent and cheap in Brussels so no really needed in the immediate area), some areas have a good choice of schools, some have really sought after schools alongside more "sink" type schools. If you are after city living within walking (cycling distance) of Justus Lipsus, well Etterbeek is fine to live in, but look also at the bits of Woluwe St Lambert, Bruxelles 1000, Auderghem, Schaerbeek and Woluwe St Pierre which are not far away which also offer the same type of period housing mainly in apartments or town houses with small gardens/terrace and possible limited parking. If you are interested in more suburban life but a quick commute to work, then look east along the metro lines 1 and 5 and tram lines 39 and 44 which go through WSL, WSP, Auderghem. But paramount in your mind at all times is getting a school place...... I'd concentrate first on the school place in areas you'd like to live, then go for the housing second. If you could line up a few school places between September and December 2012, you would realistically not be looking for housing until 2 or 3 months before moving. When we first moved to Brussels, we actually found our house quite a long time in advance in April for a 1st August move, so 4 months in advance, but most housing doesn't become available until 2 or 3 months before. If you are flexible and have luck on your side, you could in fact find somewhere to live and move in within a month. It depends also on your budget - if it is limited, it might take longer. But it's a renters' market here in Brussels, negotiating a rent downwards is normal. Use www.immoweb.be as the main search engine - you'll need to get to know the post codes of areas and also the key words to look for eg where I used to live in Stockel, and area covering 3 communes, I looked under the 3 post codes and looked for words such as "Place Dumon" or "Stockel shopping" in the descriptions as an indication of more precise locations of properties.

Biddypop, here's an almost accurate French schools map (for the area you are looking it's accurate). Ignore the blue coloured schools as they are for 6 and under. The nearest school to Justus Lipsus is Emile Jacqmain, one of the hardest schools to get in to in the region, due to its proxmity near the EU buildings - not all EU officials use European school, more and more opt for local schooling because it is local and less overcrowded, despite the often poor facilities in the local schools compared to European schools. Then there are a few schools in that area I personally wouldn't consider, school choice is far better a bit further east and south of Justus Lipsus building. The end of the metro lines 1 and 5 are only a 20 minute commute to Justus Lipsus. Public transport is very cheap in Brussels, activities for children are going to be more plentiful too a bit further out, so you might be walking to the bakery near Justus Lipsus, but then you might end up travelling far for your child's social life!
batchgeo.com/map/1f1bf2b3b6e4ad41fe67c1a57d56a826

Thank you all so much!! I've been on Easter hols so not online, but that gives me a load of very very useful information!! This week, DH has headed off overseas again and our plans are to book summer hols for this year. But I think that while he is away, I will be spending a fair amount of time looking at the various maps and websites to figure out a plan of action.

And thank you for the info on schools - I hadn't realised it would be so difficult to get into them so will get started on having the list ready and talking to the ones I think would be where I'd like to base myself.

Merci merci buckets to you all!!

I may be back again once I've had a good nose around and tried to get a handle on exactly what it is I am looking for.