Another one seeking advice on school and accomodation in Brussels

[pm2012]

Hi,
We are planning to move to Brussels in September 2012 with a 5 year old daughter. My daughter's first language is English, but she understands our mother tongue (Bengali, an Indian language) too. Should I put her in a bi-lingual school or dutch or french school? In case, we need to move out in another 5 years to another non-English country, I was looking at bilingual schools which will help her to switch to an English medium school. I have got a place for her in Acacia. How good this school is? It seems it is not recognised in french system and can be a trouble for moving into secondary if she has problem in passing the exam in French. I am looking for a school with fees under 7k like Acacia which will help her to keep up the English.
I am trying to contact Le Verseau as well. But it is too far from our work at VUB/ULB. Should we live somewhere in between. Do they accept a child in M3 or Grade 1? My daighter shows interest in reading, writing English already, that's why I was also looking gorward to admit her in Grade 1.

Ideally I would like to get her into a local school which has more emphasis on English. Can anyone suggest a commune close to Etterbeek with leafy outlook, close to shops, and public transport with a good school having an English class? We would not mind apartment accomodation and we don't mind a walk of 30-45 mins, if it helps in satisfying the other criteria?

By the way, is dutch curriculum better than french? I am completely bewildered about this school aspect. I will appreciate any help.

To enter 1ere primaire in September 2012, your daughter will normally need to be 6 by December 31st. Therefore if you are asking to put her into 1ere primaire at Acacia and she will still be 5 in December 31st, I think it will be extremely unwise, if she is not already fluent in French, as most of the formal curriculum will be in English at Acacia in 1ere primaire and the odds are against her picking up sufficient French in the playground (majority of Fr/Eng stream is Spanish, Portuguese, English etc and not Belgian French) or in PE which is in French. The school curriculum in early primaire there is designed for Francophone children to be immersed into English (hence the English majority / French minority immersion). By 6e primaire, the curriculum changes to majority French / English minority. It will therefore take much much longer for your daughter to pick up French there than at a regular French school. BICS in Etterbeek is 50/50 at primaire all the way through the school. It is however even more traditional Catholic and 1k per year more expensive - Acacia is 6k for Fr/Eng stream and BICS is 7k per year (even more if your company is paying). Even if you put your daughter into 3e maternelle if she is still 5 by 31st December 2012, the curriculum is 50/50 at Acacia at this level, but still she will only be exposed to 50% of the time in French that she would get at a regular French school.

If you speak English at home, that should be sufficient to keep up English. There is a wide choice of English language activities in Brussels for a 5 year old. I recommend joining BCT, it gives you access to 1200 other English speaking families, it runs its own activities in English for children, it gives you access to the knowledge of all the English activities their members send their children too outside of school time.

Le Verseau is NOT a bilinugal school, it is a French community school with a high percentage of non francophones in it (approx 50% Belgian French, 50% other) and 4/5 hours a week are dedicated to English at native level for English native speakers, the other 20+ hours is in French. You need to consider that if you live in Brussels, you will either have a 40-50k round trip to do 10 times a week or find a car pool to share driving. The fees are around 2k per year there. Add on the cost of a car and fuel. Add on the extra time, say 2 hours a day in a car lost where your child could be at home relaxing or be doing some activities. Your alternative is living near le Verseau and the person working near VUB having a hellish commute to work every day (am into Brussels, pm to le Verseau area is a horrible horrible commute, train is better). The choice can only be yours.

There are no local French schools in Brussels with English, English is introduced at age 14 in French schools in Brussels. I know an Indian family in our local French school whose children aged 6 and 8, after 1 year here, speak French, English, some Hindi and a Keralian language.

Where you choose to live, if you were to live near VUB is up to you and your budget. What are you looking for? Are you already in Brussels to be able to look?

PS for a local French school, several schools have already competed enrolments for September 2012, you will have to be very very quick to secure a place at the remaining popular schools which start their enrolments from 9th January onwards for September 2012. If your daughter is born in 2007, she will be in 3e maternelle in September 2012, if your daughter is born in 2006, she will be in 1ere primaire. If your daughter is born in December, the school may ask you to place her DOWN a year, as she will be the youngest in the class and without French it might be very hard for her. It is normal for this to happen here, do not think of it in a negative way.

If I had my time again, I would put my dcs into a Flemish school. Dutch is easier to learn for an anglophone and if you're not planning on staying in a French-speaking country there's no real reason to choose French over Dutch.

Dutch is a good option BUT in Brussels, the percentage of native speakers of Dutch in Dutch language schools is somewhere around 20%, the rest being either French speakers or speakers of other languages. It depends on where in Brussels you live, but in the east and south, which would include around VUB, you will the percentage of Dutch speakers might be as little as 10% even. The only exception to this is Prinses Julianaschool and you basically have to be a Dutch national to get in (it's now included in the local Dutch language system but is in effect still the Dutch (Netherlands) national school for Brussels, so you just will have zero chance of a place! The problem of non Dutch speakers in Dutch schools has led to an almost "apartheid" system of ring fencing a percentage of places for those children who can prove they are Dutch speaking of Flemish background, perhaps justifiably so, in order that the Flemish get priority access to these schools, the French and other language groups get to enrol later for any remaining places. You will have to wait until 22nd May 2012 as a non priority child entering the Flemish system in Brussels. Information evenings were held in November and December 2011. For a stress-free enrolment into a Dutch language school and majority Dutch speakers in the school, you'd have to live outside Brussels region, in Tervuren or Hoeilaart for example, commuting into Brussels.
www.inschrijveninbrussel.be/basis/index.asp

Just a thought, perhaps you should consider these 2 local free French schools in particular which are not far from VUB :

Jardins d'Elise - a communal Ixelles school west of VUB campus which has a class for non francophones, guessing for primaire level children only, but since there are only a few French schools in Brussels with one of these classes specifically for non francophones even if your daughter is not in it, the school will perhaps be used to taking non francophones.

www.ecolelesjardinsdelise.be/bienvenue.html

Institut Ste Anne - a Catholic Etterbeek school north of VUB campus which is also a base for a company called CANDY SCHOOLS which runs English classes on wednesday afternoons (no school on wednesday afternoons). Although these classes are essentially for non francophones, there may be a few anglophones in these classes who are in French schools and the parents are searching for a way of keeping up written English. This school I have heard is quite popular, not so much as St André or St Joseph Boondael at least. Enrolments for new students for September 2012 start on 1st February 2012.

www.institutsainteanne.be/pages/bienvenue/notre-ecole.html
www.candyschools.com/Info.aspx

Thanks Natation and longtime. I have also sent an email to BICS now. I will see what happens there. BICS sounds like a better option education-wise than Acacia, however I don't know how much to worry about the religion-bit...

Could you please let me know about the local good, french schools where my daughter may stand a chance to get in M3? The procedure I guess is to call +32 78 155 885 on 9th.

Regarding the accomodation: We need a 2-3 bedroom place with open living area and if possible at least 20 meter square for flowers and veggie patch. We would like the schools and home close to VUB within reasonable commuting distance using public transport. We like quiet, leafy areas which are not unfriendly towards foreigners. I can also drive. but would not like to get into huge traffic jams since I will have to follow the school hours. We are planning to buy a place like that. I just need to understand if there is such a commune which is not hugely expensive, and has got good schools and public transport and still not very far away from VUB. How is Auderghem area, by the way? How long it takes to go from Auderghem to Etterbeek? Does Etterbeek have such houses?

We are not in Brussels at the moment and would go there only in July next year. I don't know selecting schools without seeing it and without finding a house is such a good idea! However, schooling seems to be quite a tricky bit here and involves long queues as in most other good schools around the world, therefore I am trying to fix the school before the house.

Thanks again for your help.

Nearly all local French schools do their own enrolments for 3e maternelle, some have already done them, schools start back on Monday 9th January 2012. Some do enrolments in person, some by phone. Some require proof address at enrolment, some do not. Days and times vary. You have to enquire at every individual school.

BICS is classed in the same way as Acacia, as outside both the French and Flemish system, so any transfer into the local system can be tricky, but fine if you plan to stay there for the whole duration. There is quite a turnover of children at both these schools, because they are the only private primary level Fr/Eng schools in Brussels which are less than 10k per year, lycee francais excepted (but priority to French nationals there are huge waiting lists so you can probably discount that school as an option). You need to be comfortable with BICS as a school - just look at school photos to give you an idea and read the website. It is a very very traditional Catholic school. Add on another 2k perhaps onto the 7k per year for things like uniform, school lunches, books, so could cost you 9k per year.

If you want a veg patch in a ground floor flat or house, you need to bear in mind that you MUST return the garden to its original state at the end of a rental lease or otherwise you will be charged and charged highly for having made modifications, same thing applies to all things to do with interiors of rentals here. I would only recommend buying if you are here a minimum of 5 years. Purchase taxes are very high, prices are very high.

All of Brussels' communes have good schools, just some communes have more "sought" after schools that others and some communes have seen such a recent rise in the birth rate that schools can fill up classes quickly. There are 4 types of schools : communal, directly community controlled, Catholic/Jewish/Muslim, non religious, but they are all funded by the language community. Catholic schools do tend to be more popular, but there are many sought after communal schools too, such as Robert Aurore (Catteau), Paradis des Enfants, Chant d'Oiseau.

Etterbeek and Ixelles are NOT quiet, they are busy city areas. You will find traffic quite heavy around VUB, in Etterbeek and Ixelles. Take a look at google maps and look at where the green is. Some bits of Ixelles near the bois de la cambre are a bit quieter.

All of Brussels has excellent public transport, don't even think about driving to VUB, it's expensive to park in campus and impossible to find parking just outside.

There is a high percentage of foreigners in all of Brussels' communes, but I must say on hearsay only, Brussels 1000 is the worst place to live for bureaucracy when foreigners attempt to register themselves, some waiting months for official papers, whereas where I live, if you are EU, you're looking at 2-3 weeks.

Auderghem is in parts just like Etterbeek, further east it becomes a lot more leafy. The nearest area to VUB which fits any critieria is the Chant d'Oiseau area of Woluwe St Pierre but it's very expensive there. There is also Watermael-Boitsfort. You could consider perhaps this school in Watermael-Boitsfort, it's a 10 minute bus ride from there to VUB. It's a very small school by Brussels standards with less than 250 children. The children in M1-3 are in classes where sometimes all 3 ages are together, sometimes when the children are single age groups. Quite a few non Belgian children here now of different nationalities (know all this only cos I know one of the teachers).
www.ecolesaintefamille.be/

Expect for a 2-3 bed house/apartment of 100m2, a budget of ?1000 a month.

I'm in Auderghem and my dd goes to school in Etterbeek - it's not far. We're close to the VUB (dd has swimming lessons there and we often cycle on the excellent cycle path from ours to there). Our area is cheaper than both Watermael-Boitsfort and Woluwe St Pierre. Will pm you if you want more details. Happy Christmas by the way!

Dear natation and longtime,

Merry Christmas to you both and thanks a lot for sending messages during Christmas. Natation, thanks for all the info regarding schools. I am going to call Jardins d'Elise, St Anne, Catteau Aurore, Paradis de Infants, Chant d'oiseau and Watermael-Boitsfort school. I will see if I get any luck there!

Longtime, could you please let me know which school in Etterbeek your dd goes? Do you have any other suggestions for schools?

I was also wondering if anyone has some advice on reputed Dutch schools near Etterbeek ? Can you also suggest a Dutch commune near Etterbeek with good Dutch school, ease of transport, and a leafy outlook? How much is the council rates for the houses there and how much will be a stamp duty on a 2-3 bed room small house with small garden?

By the way, we used to stay to Sweden and used to understand and could talk a little bit of Swedish 6-7 years ago. It has receded away nowadays, without any usage. However, I wonder whether it will be easier for us to go through a Dutch system rather than French System?

Also, it is possible to live outside Brussels and drive to a train station/metro, leave the car and take the train/metro/tram/bus to Brussels? Will there be such possibilities in any of the Flemish area? I am kind of curious about longtime's comments about starting in Dutch system given a chance?

The link to Dutch school enrolments has a map of primary/nursery schools called kleuter/lagere school in Dutch) for Brussels but it isn't working!! Only the secondary school map is working, but there are Dutch schools throughout Brussels. You will need to contact this website to ask if you need to go through this centralised enrolment procedure for 3rde kleuter (3e maternelle) or if you should contact all the schools directly in Brussels. Just bear in mind the high percentage of non Dutch in these schools, plus in Brussels around 80% of people class themselves as francophones and the minority Dutch speakers are in the main bilingual French too and are used to day to day things being in French. Brussels is officially bilingual, meaning people have the right to all services in schools, hospitals, shops in Dutch, but in Etterbeek you are more likely to hear Arabic being used, in Schaerbeek more likely Turkish or Albanian than Dutch! It's quite weird too, on the VUB /ULB campus, you'll hear Dutch in the northern part of the campus then you just walk a few metres into the south part of the campus and voila everything is in Dutch.

Brussels is surrounded completely by officially Dutch speaking Flanders or Vlanderen, the communes (gemeenten in Dutch) which join Brussels and make a big ring shape around Brussels are called "de Rand". It's estimated still only 40% of children in this area have Dutch as a first language, still a better percentage than in Brussels, but the 40% includes some areas like Kraainem where the figure of francophones is over 70% in an officially Dutch speaking area, so some areas are overwhelmingly Dutch speaking, others not so, you need to do quite a bit of research to understand the linguistic borders of Belgium. I would say the best Dutch areas outside Brussels to commute to VUB would be those gemeenten south east of Brussels : Hoeilaart is a good choice as there is a direct train to Etterbeek station next to the campus in as little as 13 minutes, although the service is sometimes only 1 train an hour or alternatively a slower de Lijn bus, Overijse by de Lijn bus or Tervuren by STIB trams.

Here are the officially Dutch speaking gemeenten surrounding Brussels
www.vlaamserand.be/vlaamserand.php

Here is a bus / train map showing routes from Hoeilaart / Overijse / Tervuren into the VUB campus
www.delijn.be/images/Netplan_Haltes_vervoergebiedBrussel_web_tcm7-16943.pdf

Here is a map of the 19 Brussels communes, you can see VUB campus mainly inside Ixelles and a crest shape, the outer parts of campus are in Etterbeek and Auderghem
www.ilotsacre.be/site/gemeenten19communes.htm

Ok here's a way of searching for Dutch schools by gemeente name.
www.ond.vlaanderen.be/onderwijsaanbod/lijst.asp?hs=bao

I made this map recently for a parent living in Hoeilaart so you can see all the Dutch schools in the gemeenten of Hoeilaart and Overijse, a little work and I could add the schools in Tervuren too.
batchgeo.com/map/1b02a9c8794431f747e1ae84479b87b3

Back to French schools, I would personally just phone as many schools as possible. This is a website for searching for French schools.
www.enseignement.be/index.php?page=25932

The VUB campus is in fact in 3 communes, Ixelles, Etterbeek and Auderghem, then really close is Watermael-Boitsfort, Woluwe St Pierre and Woluwe St Lambert, so when looking for schools and somewhere to live, I would get to know the post codes and names of communes.

For a small 3 bed house in Auderghem, expect to pay from ?300,000 purchase price. Expect purchase taxes and notary fees to be up to 15%, so add another ?45,000. It's not unusual for people to search for 2 or 3 years before finding a house here in their budget! I certainly would not recommend that route initially, until you know your areas well and are certain you would want to stay. To sell the house, estate agent fees are very very high here, many people sell / buy by auction here, or buy from private announcements, suppose to avoid high fees.

A quick look on the website Immoweb, the biggest property website, had only 2 adverts for a 3 bed apartment (no houses) for ?1000 per month or less in Auderghem, Ixelles and Etterbeek ..... whereas you'll find plenty 2 bed apartments. You get more houses the further away from the centre of Brussels you look. How much could you afford in your budget?

One last thing, parking in Etterbeek and Ixelles is a big problem if you don't have a garage, Auderghem, Woluwe St Pierre and Watermael-Boitsfort less so.

Oh and right next door to La Sainte Famille in Watermael-Boitsfort is a Dutch Catholic school called de Wemelweide, same small size of 250 or less children. The 95 bus runs close to these schools from Van Meyel /Place Keym stops up to VUB in about 10 minutes, about 6 stops, otherwise it's a bit over 1km to the southern edge of VUB campus so around 15 minute walk or cycle. This area is quite leafy. The swimming pool and sports centre is also next door to these 2 schools. Google street view is finally up and running for Belgium, so now you can see what it's like around schools. If you google "Ave Leopold 32, 1170" you'll see the outside of La Sainte Famille with de Wemelweide one side and Calypso swimming pool the other side. There's another communal French school up the street called la Roseraie (maternelle's name) / Les Cedres (primaire's name), not such a good reputation but you should manage a place there and there are English speaking children in this school. In this area of Watermael-Boitsfort, a 2 bed apartment goes from about ?700 a month upwards, on Immoweb you'd need to look for "Place Keym" as an indication it is this quartier of Watermael. Just north of Place Keym area is the metro line 5 and north of the metro line is part of Auderghem which longtimeinbrussels knows well. I have a friend who lived on the Auderghem side of the metro line 5 and now lives on the south Watermael side of the line and has visited all of the local French schools and could tell you loads more about these 2 quartiers, she knows them very very well unlike me who relies on her for information for around there! She will highly recommend these areas. Anyway, here's the website for the Dutch school next to La Sainte Famille.
wemelweide.vgc.be/

If you join the BCT they have a schools advisor and meetings for parents sending their kids to school (Wednesday afternoons I think). That might be useful. I'm still pretty new to Brussels and find my BCT membership (and the other Belgian Mumsnetters of course) to be a complete lifesaver! Merry Christmas and good luck!

The BCT is wonderful and I second joining it but I think you'll find that the BCT schools advisor is also a member of mumsnet ;).

My dd (and ds's) went to Paradis des Enfants. It's not an easy school though and I don't know that I'd recommend it!

Another member of mumsnet has just rented a house near me and she's paying ?1500/month.