Going to live abroard with young kids for the experience? Is the grass greener?

[sparklyflowers]

DH and I (well, more DH TBH) has always had a burning desire to try living abroad for a change of scenery etc. We nearly made it a couple of times before kids but due to jobs falling through / lack of maternity benefits etc it never came off.
We both retuned to live where we were from after university etc and as we have friends / family here there seems no point moving away in this country for the sake of it. However, the area we live in is considered a bit 'deprived' and this can get us down thinking about kids futures etc.
We have a DS (1) and one DC on the way. We are renting, but in a position where we can afford to buy, and need more space. DH has brought up again about do we want to look at moving abroard in the future again (thought he may forget about it since we've had DC's!). He says we need a longer term plan of what we want before we start buying houses again etc. I think he is quite right. The problem is I think he's a little unrealistic as to what living abroad may be like in reality but ti's always something he's wanted to try and also I'm confused as to what I want. The thought of living here forever is depressing. We've done lots of travelling and I think it would be great for the kids to try living somewhere else. I also don't want to have regrets and leave an itch unscratched and think if it was crap we could always come back. We both have jobs where we could work internationally (although I'd prob end up looking after the littles ones for a bit). However, I also have family here who are involved (DH has none) and I think about taking kids away from GP's and worry about making friends / generally being homesick - although I'm not sure of what I'd be missing.
DH has said to me I know what he wants and can I decide what I want.
I would be grateful for any opinions / realistic view on this.
I'm thinking I can't contemplate abroad until DC2 is around 2 at which point it might be possible to 'try' something before DC's start school etc. I would love your thoughts please on if / when / anything else

Well it really depends where you're going!

I would say its easier when they're younger tbh as you don't worry about them being so settled/education/a new language.

If you are going to do it, I'd say do it sooner not later - we moved when dc1 was 19 months and preg with dc2. Not saying you should move while preg but if you move when they are very small they will pick up a new language way more naturallly, you won't need to look for preschool or school as soon as you move, and you can get to know other mums by taking the dc to toddlers groups etc.

You and dh need to talk about where you mean by "abroad" though - do you mean Australia or France for example - the challenges and advantages will be totally different depending on language, culture, distance from UK etc and I would say that is your first point to discuss!

I know people do, but I would say don't move without one of you having a job to go to now you are almost a family of 4.... Stress of no job, no house, no friends in a new place when you have kids is different from the excitement of landing in a new country with no ties when you are single! So once you and your dh are on the same page regarding destination countries you could research the job market and see how realistic it is from that angle...

It's really dependent upon a number of factors - job, distance, what it's like for children, taxes.

If you moved to another EU country, you can do so with ease, so long as you have the means to support yourself (as many countries in the EU still require you to register at the town hall and provide proof of where you are living and income in order for you to be given permission to "officially" live in the country). I can only help you with how it would be for Belgium, to a lesser extent Netherlands and France and Québec in Canada, all of which IMO are far better places to bring up children than a deprived part of the UK.

I wouldn't worry at all about the language aspect for young children under the age of say 8 years old, but you would need to be open to an education system which might differ considerably to your own experiences in the UK.

To be honest, and I don't mean to be nasty here, I'd be worried about your repeated use of 'abroad'. It sounds so terribly vague. I think you need to have more of a concrete idea of where you're going and what the advantages and disadvantages of that place would be. Any country is going to involve lots of bureaucracy when you move there first, as natation says, less so if it's an EU country, but then you have the language issue. What language skills do either of you have? Countries in mainland Europe are easier in terms of moving stuff back and forth, and flights back to the UK, but Australia/New Zealand/US etc are culturally and linguistically closer. Would Ireland be a good compromise there? Would it feel 'abroad' enough for you? Or do you want somewhere that is totally 'foreign' and out there - Asia, South America? In which case you've got all sorts of difficulties with insurance, health, visas etc. You need to work out what 'abroad' means for you.

Hi. Thanks for your replies. Yes, 'abroad' does does sound vague. We have considered where and the pro's and con's of places. Aus and NZ are out for me - too far from family, but DH would go. Also, felt that culturally these are so like the UK would be weird, not different enough for it to be worth the sacrifice and prob would make me more homesick (we have spent time travelling in both). Previously DH has a job offer in Germany which I was really up for as love the place and felt it would be easy to get to / from home. Also feel from my experiences people in Germany are similar enough culturally to us to feel we could fit in but the culture, language etc are different enough for it to be interesting. So, in short, I feel we could consider much of Europe. However, since having children, as I wouldn't be working / working PT, I would be concerned about how I would fit it / make friends with the language but feel the DC's would be fine.
I previously (2 years ago) had a job offer in the US where DH could be brought across on a visa to work too. However, it was just before we were planning to try for DC 1 (not getting any younger) and the options were awful mat benefits + going back FT after 12 weeks, so I gave the opportunity up. The US / Canada appeals again due to different culture, and the language side would not be an issue. However, obviously the distance is further so there are issues there.
Although SE Asia is fab, not sure I would want to live there unless DH's job gave good expat links.
If I'm honest, I'd really like to sort something if I take the emotion out of it but I can be quite emotional and I have a very emotional Mum who is very into the grandparent thing and when I told her we were going to the US before having children the reaction was horrific - long story (I didn't expect her to be pleased but it was really awful. I was so cross at the time, but at the same time really upset as I am close to my Mum and they do live 15 mins away now). Now, I just feel it will be so hard to take her grandchildren away. However, she has always been over-controlled by her parents and I am determined I don't want to have regrets and live my life as she wants me too.

This is something I see us doing for a couple of years and seeing how it goes. I just worry about the nitty gritty emotionally of actually doing it and I guess that's why I'm being vague.
If DH was relocated with his job (as opposed to actually having to apply for one somewhere) I think this would be much easier for me as the writing would be on the wall and I could just tell my Mum that was what was happening and we'd go. I think she'll take it personally and think I'm being cruel and it might start all sorts of problems relationship wise there. Also, DS has got a good relationship with his grandparents (he only has mine). Would this be changed if we took him away?

Blimey. There is a lot of analysis going on here.

My take is you only live once and why not give it a shot.

We have done it twice and are much the richer for it. Not in terms of money....but in terms of outlook and experience.

I'm sort of in a similar position and have been renting for a few years now with DH and DS, in the hope that a suitable overseas opportunity will present itself. However, we're now on the verge of buying a house as DS is now at school and we can't live with the instability any longer. But we haven't closed the door entirely - we can always rent the house out if necessary.

I think you can over-analyse things/wait until things are perfect and it just stops you from doing things. In the 3 - 4 years that we have been talking about it, a number of our friends have moved overseas. What they did was to narrow it down to a country/place, then look for a job. We've been doing it the other way round and it hasn't worked out.

Just be aware that unless you are looking at long-term relocation (5+ years), your children probably won't remember your time overseas when they are older, and unless you keep up a language once you move on, they will probably lose that too. DD moved from Scotland when she was nearly 4 and can't remember anything about it (she's 7 now and we have no relatives where we lived so haven't been back to that part of the UK). It's as if she was never there....

Try it, but don't do it for the children alone. I'm one of the expats who is so happy the kids are growing up overseas but hope they manage to do all their growing up overseas iyswim...

We moved when our children were 7 and 8 and it was a huge upheaval for them. We have a good life here, but to be honest I suspect we could have found that in the UK too if we had looked a bit harder. I'm not totally sure that they have particularly benefited. After three years away they have forgotten much of what it was like to live in England (perhaps because Canada is quite similar culturally).

However perhaps you weren't talking about the experience being good for your kids, but more for you and your dh? In which case I'd say do your research carefully. Emigrating is expensive and stressful, you need to really feel that the benefits outweigh the costs. Having said that dh is busy daydreaming about our next move (once the children are at university).

For me the loss of family is an issue. I talk to my parents and siblings about as often as when we lived in the UK, but the children really don't have much of a relationship with their cousins. Plus I do slightly worry that when my children settle down it might not be in the same country as us.

Thanks for your replies. Yes, there is alot of analyis going on - I think that's half my problem! Suebfg - it's so nice to hear someone in a similar position. Sometimes I have thought maybe is we wanted it enough we'd have made it happen already. I guess the difference is DH can live with the instability of renting, waiting etc while it is driving me mad with having another DC on the way.

If we do do it, I want it to be good for all of us, including the DC's.

You're right, I think alot of narrowing down and timescales needs to done / set.

As you might have guessed I'm very indecisive.

Hi Sparkly

I could have written your post about a year ago. I would say that it all depends on the job. With such a wide net, you will always find a reason not to make the move. There's so much to consider - housing, schooling/nursery, social life, language... but, it's all academic unless you have a real opportunity to go to.

A year on, and countless job applications later, my dh has finally landed a great job. It's not a country I had initially considered moving to, but the whole package just seems right.

Find the right opportunity, and it will feel right. And exciting!
And my bottom line is to go for it - if it's rubbish you can always come back.

marjean....where are you off to/did you end up?, if you don't mind me being nosey :)

Indaba - not at all. We're off to Turkey. Initially, we had considered NZ, but there were few opportunities in the places we fancied and our families weren't so keen on the expense/distance. We then looked at two jobs in Northern/Western Europe but one didn't feel right and the other fell through. So Turkey it is! Very excited.

Re SE Asia, as a Hong Konger I would say it's a great life, but you're right that you need a good package that includes a rent and schools allowance unless you're a front office banker or a city lawyer on multi-£100k per year salary

Even then, the package looks great until you find out that rents in HK are 3x central London (Sing not quite as bad but catching up) and some of the international schools are the same price as Eton (state schools not really an option due to language and massive cultural differences). Therefore, if you're coming for a few years, come now before you have to send them to school .

That said, depending on what you do, some of the other SE Asian countries offer a lovely life and are far more affordable.

After 17 years living abroad (it was never intended to be that long) me, DH, and DD are moving back to the UK.

I'm absolutely terrified, but to answer your question about how green that grass is, well it's as green as you decide to make it.
For years everytime I told people in England that I lived in Italy they would say how lucky I was, but after the initial years of feeling like you are living in a permanent holiday, when even going to work is an exciting novelty, it all soon wears off - not completely I'd like to add, but inevitably you just walk past monuments that people all over the world come to gawp at and which barely register as you rush to a job that has now turned into a relentless treadmill.

Now I've come to realise that I need my family close. I want my DD to have a close relationship with her grandma (my mum) and I wouldn't mind a bit of babysitting done too .

I won't deny that going back to England fills me with dread, specially when thinking about the weather, but at the same time I believe that nothing is set in stone. If it doesn't work then we can always come back, or go to France (my 2nd plan).

So I say go for it! You'll always be wondering if you don't. And I know that it's difficult to leave family, but at the same time your mum has to realise that she's got to let you go and live out your life.
But at the same time sort out the praticalities. It sounds to me that neither you or your H are clear where you want to go - and that really is a pretty important part of the plan .

Have you thought about what would give you what you desire in uk? Eg beaches live by coast? Perhaps plan work on contract basis so you get more time to take l

Oops sorry! We live in uk but try to travel in all the school holidays so that can give you a fix. If you determined to go then do it before they start school as mine would now hate to move

Don't just do it for the kids - do it for you and your partner. If you're far away from friends and family and the only reason you have moved is because you think it will be better for your kids, you're going to end up feeling very resentful and unfulfilled. The kids generally adapt wherever you are, although they tend to find it harder if older. (My younger children are fine but 9yo ds1 found it very difficult leaving behind his friends.)

Your dh may just be raising the issue so you're aware that he's thinking about it, but I don't think he should use the possibility of living abroad as an excuse not to buy a house. If you're expecting another child, I can completely understand that you would want to have a larger place, and preferably a place of your own. I felt exactly the same when expecting ds2. Plus, if you have the finances to buy in the UK, and then rent out your place when you go abroad, it will give you some security if something unexpected happens and you lose your job or need to come back suddenly.

Your mum sounds a bit like mine, and mine still hasn't come to terms with us being away (in Australia). Plus she hates flying so although I know she'd love it if she were over here I don't really know how I'd get her to come (land/sea travel for 3 months each way being a great adventure but rather impractical).

Having said all that, if it's something you want to do, do it. You'll never know what it will be like unless you try.

I've made this point before on similar threads...you can turn yourself in knots for years weighing up advantages v disadvantages, especially looking at financial aspects.

But my view is if you fancy it, why not give it a go.

If it is pants, you can always go home.

Our family (and me in particular) are so much the richer in terms of outlook and experience following overseas stints. We are much the worse off financially. Without a doubt. But to me, we have gained so much more.

Yes. The grass is greener.
In California and we can cry at the thought of having to return home.
Love Americans.love California.love the sun.love not seeing feral youths getting drunk in local parks. They say good afternoon to you here.
Cheaper.greener. Better in every way.the thought of the uk depresses me completely.
Canadians are lovely too, but it is colder there.

As someone who moved abroad a few months ago with DH and 2 primary school age children I agree with Indaba and others who say if you feel open to the idea why not give it a go - especially if one of you really wants to do it. If we had thought too hard about all the details we probably wouldnt have done it (and I suspect that's true of many of us who chose to move abroad rather than being sent by an existing employer), and although I still find it quite hard (nearly 4 months in) I already feel we will be glad to have done it long term. Also, my DH harboured a long term ambition to work in the developing world (and not to commute into London - the alternative he faced), so I would have needed strong grounds to say no. I said no once before to an overseas posting when my career was at a more critical point, but this time decided I was happy to give it a rest for a year or two (though I am already thinking about what work I could do here - I find that adapting to not working is the hardest thing if, like me, you are not much good at being a housewife).

We hope to do it next spring. We're buying a boat and travelling around the Dutch and French canals, down to the Med, then winter in a hot bit of Spain.

We have about 18 months before DD starts school, so we are renting the house out & off we'll go hopefully!

We moved from Canada to Egypt in August with our five year old. We are both teachers and struggled to find good jobs so an international school seemed like a good option. Our dd goes to the same school we teach at, so I am happy with her quality of education and as it is an international school, her classmates all speak English - even in kindergarten.
Pros - we both have full time jobs which means more money, which means more vacations, more restaurants and more options
Cons- we don't live in the same country as either set of grandparents, so lots of guilt and feelings of obligation to spend holidays with them, no English speaking ballet or swimming classes for dd, far away from family and friends, dd's friends all go to the expensive school we teach at, meaning they are all loaded and live in fancy villas, over time dd will realize she is not on the same social scale as them...hard for us to make friends here, not sure why.
Overall I think its a good idea to move overseas, but I think we will be moving on after one year, to somewhere with more foreign families. Plus I am pg, so will be taking a year off, so want to be somewhere I am really happy with.

I am doing it right now! My DC are 4 and 6 and it is wonderful, we decided to emigrate for a year, youngest is in pre school and eldest is still young enough for a move of school to not be a huge problem, plus they will both remember it. It is the best thing we ever did, both settled instantly into their new schools, have become so confident and have learned so much about different culture and the world. We are not doing it longer term as DH's job means we have to be back. We had the opportunity to do it when my DS was 3 and my DD was a newborn and I didnt want to, It wouldnt have been right for me as I wanted the support from family then etc. But there are a lot of plus points to travel with little children, but it wouldn't have been for me. It has been very positive.