Expats help!! I have to get out of here...

[justlookatthatbooty]

I've been feeling the urge to leave the country I am living in for about 4 years now.
I am now feeling really rather desperate and need to make a plan.
So this is long...hope you can bear it. Apologies if not.....

I've been out of the UK for about 15 years now. First six years in Aus, subsequent 9 or so in Netherlands.
Living in a very cramped but safe and (infrastructure wise) solid city has it's + and - points but it really is time to move on. (breathing breathing, god I really do feel quite desperate)

Our kids are 2 and 3 and I feel so frustrated with the culture and extremely concerned about the kids growing up so very Dutch. DH is dutch but ready for change, or rather, open to change. There are many misconceptions about dutch culture, mainly because of the weed thing/home births/homosexuality tolerances. All these are very good things IMO. But these factors do not make for an open culture by any stretch of the imagination. My eccentric streak that was so welcome in UK and Australia is just about dying a drought induced death and childcare standards are absolutely horrendous and.....I could go on for hours but I won't.

I'm hoping to hear your pros and cons, your personal experiences of living where you live and why. Tips, tricks advice....anything and everything will help at this stage of planning for the action (january 2012?)

DH has a highly skilled and portable job and is very very clever :). I have a portable job, if not highly skilled :). I am well travelled (in some continents but not others) and an extremely resourceful long term expat, if not clever:) I wouldn't want to work the sort of hours that would take me away from the kids for too long. We have approx 1300 euros a month to live on from rented accomodation if we don't work. Or approx 50k if we sell up. These are fave options (rather than being employed somewhere) because I want to write a book and DH is cooking up a project that needs time and focus. Bali?

I need nature in huge doses to make up for living for almost a decade in a heavily industrialised country. I am a nature lover. And no, a monthly trip to Belgium is not what I'm in need of. I need to live in a place where we can breathe countryside on a daily basis.
Scottish Highlands or Cornwall have huge appeal. I am extremely familiar with the latter and not at all with the former. Forest kindergartens are a major factor in the pull of the Highlands (perthshire) but I know nothing of the culture/economics/demographics. A visit is certainly in order. Surviving on 1300 euros a month is obviously out of the question (enter DH's portable job working from home). Climate is obviously a huge consideration....winters are cold here in NL and I'm kinda sick of it, or at least the endless darkness.

Bali has immense appeal but makes me slightly nervous with such young kids, though clearly many people do it. Schools in Ubud look lovely lovely lovely. But political/environmental factors? And dengue? The kids are still young. Hhmm. The warmth, nature, and the obvious lifestyle possibilities on our monthly budget are big draw factors. Being so far from DH's family (close knit, g'ma and g'dad will be horrified, tho are certainly travellers themselves) is disadvantage.

Nz could be a future possibility, but it feels a little early to go so far.

Ibiza? Can't find any decent schools via google.

Where else? Middle East doesn't appeal.

I'm sorry for this long one..... I've kinda splurged here.

Thanks in advance....

Didn't want to read and run, so I'll give some totally crap advice:

Come back here - its lovely!

Well, if all fails move to the Ardennes......

Depending where you are in Cornwall rental prices aren't too bad - and if you want space then either near Bodmin Moor or the Tamar Valley with easy access to Dartmoor would suit. The schooling is good around the Tamar Valley as well and there are several primaries to choose from.

Know what you mean about it being cold, Belgium was last winter, and it gets dark early, but equally, Cornwall with the endless damp and mizzle can be equally frustrating in winter.

Thanks LivinginOz.... Love to..... may look into it.

Scary that's not bad advice but I fear the Belgians are too close to the Dutch in terms of culture tho I now expect someone from either culture to come along and shoot me for sayin so.

Love the cornwall idea... think coastal would be more our thing and being connected is very important. Whilst nature is exactly what I am looking for, rural isolation would drive me nuts. Looking for a balance there. I know cornwall in winter and it can feel pretty isolated. So beautiful tho.

Any highlanders hanging around here?

Or Bali expaters? (she said hopefully?)

Friends just moved to Ibiza and loving it. But the schools.....

Thanks anyway, this is cheering me up immensely!!

If you don't like dark cold winters Scotland won't appeal surely.

I think Bali ticks quite a few of your boxes. Have a look at The Green School; it was set up by a former head of TTS Singapore and is an amazing place.

I live in Singapore and love it. There isn't much nature close by but it is warm and light.

Have you considered: South of France? Spain? Vietnam?

Ok (puts Practical Hat on), first things first, when are you thinking of doing this and for how long?

I ask this because of the ages of your kids - a 2 & 3 yr old for a couple of years in Bali may be idyllic but further down the line, how about schooling (international schools are v expensive, local state schools in many countries will still charge fees). Would you want them to be in a British-type or Dutch system, or don't you mind??

You seem to have lots of pushes away from where you are, but want factors pull you apart from the cost of living/countryside/daylight/climate?/

You could look at S Africa, esp for yr dh, as may tick a few boxes for him (Afrikaans v like Dutch), beautiful countryside and tons of it, good climate.. It's got super expensive though (esp compared to wages), there's the obvious safety factor..
HTH

thanks peoples....

I have a fear of crime in S.A which is why I've never gone. Dh's english is better than mine and the pelangi partly indonesian partly international school I have in mind in bali is 1k a year per child, teaching a british curriculum which is affordable for us on our 1300 a month. Green school has been high on my list of wants for a couple of years, and if the children show academic prowess and finances permitting would be first choice. Youch, tho at 9 k per child per year for kindergartners. so that's for laters.
Seems there is a large expat community in Bali who educate their kids to 'western' standards and are long termers there. But very good call tho Exptagain. Where are you located if I may be so curious as to ask?

Indeed re cold dark winters in scotland, and prob no more likely to see family in London than if living in Bali, frankly.
I wonder if stomaching scotland for a couple of years whilst the kiddos are young and then warmer climates later could be a good idea. Secret Garden nursery and the likes is hugely swaying me there, plus time difference is easier on hubbie re working with NL online. If we can get online in some of those highlands locations that is.
But the dengue in Bali?

AndEmpirestate, in Singapore, do you know many 'westerners' with young ones? V. diff to bali I guess but the heat and all?

thanks people!

I expect that if you are fed up with the Netherlands, you might not be too keen on most of the UK either as being different/too exuberant is not that accepted unless of course in the major cities .... Also, standards of living are declining rapidly in the UK with little prospects of this changing in the near future. Schools are another issue and university is becoming increasingly unaffordable (I know your kids are still little bit something maybe to consider as well). Not sure what the problem with childcare in the Netherlands is, but here it is not great either, usually expensive and not always that great. Have you considered going back to Australia? They should be more insulated from major economic shocks compared with New Zealand. I am considering moving to the Netherlands so I would be keen to know what you don't like (better forewarned .....). Whatever you decide, good luck, and don't act in haste (mind you if you already have been thinking about leaving for four years it can hardly be called haste ...).

We are a British family living in the Netherlands, albeit the green, hilly part. ;) long term we will go home, the highlands as it happens - but now is not the right time for a move to the UK imo. also if you're not keen on cold, Scotland is perhaps not for you.

Don't go to the ardennen, I lived there for 4 years and went quite hatstand!

Wrt Bali, will it not be one of those places where night falls by 7 every day of the year?

Also, bear in mind you will probably need long stay visas for countries out of the EU, and possibly some in it.
We lived in Thailand for four years. DH had a job so a visa wasn't a problem, I know for those without, it involves border runs every 12 weeks or proof of minimum annual income which, for some people was borrowing from friends to be able to show a bank acount with sufficient funds in it.

wow that's a tough one - but think of it this way, how cool that you get to choose anywhere in the world to live!! I lived in NL for 12 years as a kid and teenager and I do know what you mean. As much as we loved living there, there is a unique quality about the Dutch - not good or bad - just unique and it's tough to integrate. I even find that with the Dutch community here in China.
I think the first step has to be to look at where you could get jobs or a visa without a job. If it were me I'd be going to Oz or NZ - yes it's a long way away but to be honest, once you've flown halfway around the world to Bali, you might as well have flown the rest of the way! what I mean is that anyone who would visit you in Bali will come to Oz. Bali does sound idyllic (and I've never been - have to admit) but I think it is not the most secure place and I'd say it would get very boring very quickly being so small..... but you know, I'd go with your gut instincts - obviously research etc but I know I want to end up in oz so everyone has draws to different places. good luck!

If you'd consider coming back to Aus then somewhere like Bangalow (hinterland behind Byron Bay) might suit you. It feels a bit Balinese with it's tropical foliage, rolling hills etc, but it gets cool enough in winter to have a roaring fire going. Great community, good school options (practically free), much reduced disease risk compared to Bali, fab beaches, veges grow like weeds so you can grow lots of your own fod and live cheaply.

2 hours drive to Brisbane, a dozen odd flights to Sydney each day - it's not remote.

It's a mecca for artistic eccentric types. Might be worth a look?

I'm in Singapore too, OP, there are thousands of expats with young children here, it's very international. From my point of view:
Pros: very safe, lots to do with children, it's daylight 7am to 7pm all year, never need to wear a jumper unless you're in very cold aircon, friendly expat community as everyone's in the same boat, locals generally very tolerant of foreigners, most people speak English, extremely multi-cultural so great for the kids to be exposed to different cultures (e.g. in my DD's class there are children from 12 different countries), chance to learn Mandarin, a short flight to many SE Asian holiday destinations such as Malaysia, Bali, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, affordable domestic 'help' including childcare, can swim outdoors all year round.
Cons: a small city island, so very little nature and no large wild spaces (although there are many nice parks), relentless heat and humidity, two seasons not four, mosquitoes, distance from friends and family in UK, VERY expensive accommodation (most people live in high-rise blocks, even ludicrously expensive houses have pretty small gardens), expensive international schools (though pretty good standard) with waiting lists, very conformist local culture, high cost of living generally (groceries, coffee shops, books, clothes, toys, etc) although you can eat out cheaply if you like local food, phenomenally expensive to have a car (we don't).

FWIW - I love Bali but the roads are so congested now that I think that might drive me mad if I lived there. It's a shame, because it's such a beautiful, fascinating place.

I would suggest the north of Norway. The winters are dark, but rather than damp and cold, they are crispy white with starstudded skies, northern lights, skiing and sledging, and ice skating. The nurseries are fantastic. Outdoorsy and with "survival skills" built in, and state subsidized, so a full time place is cheap compared to London for sure.

The darkness of the winter, is remedied by midnight sun, and fantasic mountains for scrambling, climbing, mountain biking. Shores with sand, but mostly pebbles and beautiful rocks, crystal clear waters, but too cold to swim. Wildflowers in abundance. You pick your blueberries, lingonberries, arctic cloudberries, wild rasberries direct from natures store room, free of course.

Google "climbing Kvaløya", look at these pictures, or these pictures and check this link: www.destinasjontromso.no/english/index.html

People love eccentric up here!

Have to agree with Flim - roads in Bali are so congested, it is a real drag making even the shortest journey. I have only been there on holiday (last August) and Ubud is lovely, food is great, but everywhere was packed with trourists and Kuta (drove through there) was hellish.

If you want countryside I wouldn't recommend Singapore!
It all depends on what your DH does, if you come to the UK you could look at the South East, close to London. Odd I know but there are some nice rural bits, and there are even Forest schools, some are even State school (and some State schools aren't official forest schools but have similar ideas). Eg. here or here or a news report.
Don't go to Scotland if you don't like long dark winters BTW.

Belgian culture is nothing like dutch culture but I'm not sure it can compete with Scotland/Bali etc in terms of nature.

Highland Perthshire has very cold, very long winters. And the summers aren't that great weather-wise either . It is stunningly beautiful of course, and property is relatively cheap (relative to South-East England, that is - it's actually not that cheap by Scottish standards). I know people who make a living in the highlands, but it is hard. Jobs are not easy to come by anywhere in Scotland, tbh at the moment, though that may not matter if you are able to work remotely (I'm not sure from your posts whether that is the case). Broadband is improving and the government has plans to improve high speed broadband access in rural areas.

Sorry to hear you are not enjoying living in the Netherlands :-( . I'm Dutch,DH is English and we live in the UK. Could it be you have just been unlucky with the part of Holland you live in? My experience of childcare in Holland has always been great,very child orientated where as I find the childcare in the UK pretty hideous. Very curious to know which part of the Dutch culture you find difficult (genuinely interested as ofcourse being Dutch that wouldn't be something I would notice)

South Africa sounds great and I have personally always felt quite drawn to the Scandinavian way of life.

I do agree with the lack of open spaces in Holland. It is VERY full. I only notice that now every time I go back.

UK is quite a difficult place to live at the moment. I absolutely dread being old here and/or needing care. Education and schooling has become the stuff of nightmares with parents fighting to get their child into a decent school,huge cost of University (Scotland is still free). Once finished their education the kids come out of school waving their qualifications and it turns out employers are of the opinion that they are ill prepared for working life.....

Social care system and national health system are much better in Holland,they are a real shambles here and in need of a huge overhaul.

Before I get flamed with "why don't you go back to Holland if it's so great there" comments,I would like to add I love living in England,love the British people and there's many, many positives to those few negatives I have mentioned. Just answering the OP's questions and curious to see if life in the Netherlands has changed in my absence (it's been 18 years...)

I'm in NL and love it. I have no complaints about childcare (very much the opposite), I'm close to the sea and there's plenty of dune and woody areas to get lost in, okay not on an Australian or highlands scale but I like it. While I agree people are no more open than anyplace else I've no experience of them being any more closed minded. May I ask are you in one of the more religious parts of NL?

Northern Nord Holland, Groningen and Frielsand still have open spaces for anyone wondering, also the social care is pretty good BUT we are taxed up the wazoo for the privilege. We do at least seem to have dodged the schools issue I see on here a lot. Noweher is prefect really but the NL described above is not the same one I know.

I'm not Ducth btw I'm Irish.

Dont do Bali. It is (IMO) now hugely overdeveloped, and, as others have said, congested. You will be bored in a very short space of time. Also, there is nature, but I'm not sure how accessible it really is (you cant just go wandering through paddy fields )

Surprisingly, HK has masses of very accessible countryside (40% of the territory is national park) BUT your DH would need a visa which are hard to come by and it is uber expensive.

Have you thought about Spain? Cheap and easy to get flights in and out of the UK. Huge variety of landscapes all within easy reach. Extremely friendly locals and a large expat community. I had both of my chldren here and the healthcare has been fantastic. Youngest one is in small Spanish nursery and loving it, eldest one in an international school where I work where the educational standards are exceptional. Lots of cultural experiences for all the family.

hmm, I think I have just met my family's doppelgänger family.

We are thinking very, very hard about Vietnam, and keeping an open mind about cambodia and laos. We dismissed Bali for all the reasons people have made above.

I am not familiar at all with South America, but I know Guatamala and Costa Rica are pretty popular with western families looking to drop out a bit, keep living costs down, but still have access to decent schools and hospitals.

Sorry OP for hijacking your post . We are considering a move to Uganda. So far we have failed to find a suitable school for our 6yr dc. Any suggestion will be whole heartedly be received.

Agree with other poster who mentioned if you were unhappy with Dutch culture you probabbly wouldnt be too pleased with british culture for many of the same reasons.

Britain is so beautiful, cornwall has some of the best beasches in the world & my husband has a big place in his heart for Skye. But so cold & dark for so much of the year.

Our family sounds simelar to you. We intend to relocate with our young family 3yr & 6mths. We have researched & decided on Mallorca. We will be useing state schools/HE, so cant really help you there. But, mallorca, once you get passed the brits/germans on the piss areas, I assure you, is outstanding. Mountains, plains, platauex & coast, green, blue & lush. There is a strong arts community island wide, but particularly the town we have decided on. We are looking forward to tapping into this & enjoying fresh grown produce & watching our boys play freely in the sun, aaaarrrrhhhh. cant wait now, only 359 days to go............12 month count down began begining of sept.

We too can work remotely & have projects we need time space & nature to develop. I think you would find nice rented accomodation for your budget (more than us! & we are looking at being able to afford rent on 3/4 bed finca) Living & housing standards are so much better than the uk to & long term rentals are the norm.
Its has excellent air & ferry services. Its a small island, only 100k (ish) from tip to tip, so even if rural, you are never really remote.
It has its own NHS, although not as comprehensive as the uk, but hey ho!
I could go on with the plus point, but as you can guess we`ve already decided!!
We are looking at south east, santanyi area - we want to be close to the sea. Deia & Valdamossa in the mountains are gorgeous.

I hope this helps? Good luck, its very exciting decideing where to go. we new we were nver going to stay here to bring our kids up (northern city) & have glad we`ve found the right place - hope you & your family do to :)