DH would like to move to Canada from UK - brilliant opportunity or big mistake?

[perrinelli]

Trying to have a sense of adventure but can't help thinking about the potential problems! We have a 3 yr old daughter and a baby due in June. We've been thinking for a while about applying for residence in Canada under the federal skilled worker programme and going over there for 2 - 5 yrs if my husband could get a suitable job. We'd be going for the experience and quality of life.

What worries me is that we'd be leaving behind a pretty good life here, I feel settled in London and secure in my friendships, with lots of family support not too far away, and a really good local primary school. I don't think I'm someone that finds change that easy and it can take me time to build up real friendships with people. Also worried about potential upheaval for kids, maybe not so much going out there when they are young but coming back when they will be school age (older one could be as old as 10 if it takes us a couple of yrs to get there and we stay for 5 yrs) - won't that be really hard for them? Is it selfish of us to put them through potentially two upheavals (or am I just using that as an excuse because I'm worried about how I will cope!). Would really appreciate your thoughts and experiences!

Toronto is where he would be most likely to find a job (in finance) so long winters could also be an issue.
We would get in under the federal skilled worker programme based on my profession as a social worker but not sure if I would work or not once we were there, at least not until the kids were settled and older.

I would suggest a visit - to check out the job situation and what you really thing - we thought about australia and a visit clarified things

Have you visited Toronto?

It is certainly quite a clean city and crime is low but coming from London I can't help but think you'll be bored. Toronto (and most of Canada) is painfully dull a lot of the time!

I'm sure you've thought of all the positives already so here are some other things to think about whether you could cope with:

It is very expensive so, unless you have a big budget, housing wise you'd probably need to look somewhere on the outskirts which unfortunately are a bit grim.

Winters are long and freezing - think snow from first week of October through to April, and then it suddenly switches to sweltering hot!

Flights to and from the UK are very expensive for some reason so this might be an issue for family and friends visiting.

And you need to drive pretty much everywhere.

We've not visited Toronto - only the other side around Vancouver which we'd prefer especially in terms of climate, but I think realistically the job opportunities for my husband will be in Toronto.

We'd keep our UK home and be renting at least initially so housing budget would depend on the job he got but I'd like to think we wouldn't go unless he could get a job that paid decently enough to provide us with nice housing and the ability to pay for flights back home to see friends and family.

Not too worried about being bored compared to London I don't think - we live 10 minutes from Waterloo and shamefully don't really make the most of the cultural activities on offer anymore, though having a little one definitely has something to do with that!

The harsh winters do concern me - my husband will probably be ok as he is German and used to 'proper' winters but I can get quite grumpy when cold!

We definitely do need to visit but with the 3yo and new baby coming in a couple of months that's no cheap and straightforward task in itself and will have to wait a bit!

We may decide to put in for the visa then plan a visit when we can, as I think if we're going to go we need to do it soon when the children are young before they get really stuck into the school system and I believe the visas can take some time to get processed.

Just can't help wondering what we are going away from - we have financial security here and both have stable and reasonably paid employment prospects, we can afford a relatively good standard of living in London (or could move out into the commuter belt for a bit more greenery) and have support from family and friends. Selfish to uproot the family because of a case of 'itchy feet', or is it invaluable experience for children to experience living abroad?

Definitely have a visit and check it out before you make a decision.

Having said that, Canada is a beautiful country. I have family on the Eastern coast. There is so much space compared to what we are used to that it's unimaginable sometimes, and if I had had the chance to work there, I would have jumped at it.

Toronto is obviously different, being a major city and, I have to say, I didn't realy like it when I was there with work - although only for a couple of weeks.

But there are other major cities as well - but obviously depends on the work you will expect to be doing. Is Toronto your only option?

The winters may be hard, but they are used to it and well-organised. A lot of Toronto's shops, for example, are underground.

I would say, on balance, go for it - but it's a good idea to do a visit first and see if you can get a feel for it.

vancouver is absolutley stunnin, the quality of life my cousins have over there is amazin, they reularly do outdoor activities such as snowboardin, mountain climbin etc, once you see the place you will see how brilliant it is for kids, a 10 min drive and you have breathtakin crystal clear lakes, and waterfalls surrounded by forest and rope brides, nature trails, you can o whale watchin, i saw killer whales and stuff, the quality of life and standard of livin is definitely much better, it is unlikely you will be livin in a box, even the appartments are nice with shared areas and pools etc

and it is soo clean!!!

Looks like Toronto might be the only option for my husband to get a job that pays similarly to something here in London as he is a quantitative analyst (sort of financial mathematician) and would be looking for a job with an investment bank or hedge fund. He informs me that Toronto is the third largest financial centre in north America after New York and Chicago.

I think a lot would depend on whether we could find a nice area to live with a good community feel and some open space but which was in easy reach of the city centre for him.

I have friends that spent 4 yrs in Toronto when the husbands company transferred them out there. The wife is a physiotherapist, and she worked part time after gaining the required registration requirements to work there. They went out there with two children and had a third while living there. They rented out their house in England and bought a house in the suburbs in Toronto - apparently there is very little to rent and everybody buys and had two cars to be able to get around. For them the move made sense - they had the security of the company behind them, and they were well compensated for the move. They've since moved on to another 4-yr stint in NZ.

Dh also has other (childless) friends who emigrated to Vancouver a few years ago. For them it was quite different, they had a lot of trouble getting work, (Employers favour Canadians) and neither ended up getting work in their fields of expertise (IT) which was a surprise. I think one has ended up retraining in another field.

Finally, I also have a close American friend who was recruited for a job in Vancouver 18 mths ago. She moved from New York to Vancouver with her husband and two children on a handsome relocation package and salary and they have found themselves priced out of the housing market there. Her DH has been unable to find any work in finance out there (Vancouver is the wrong place for that which they knew) and she is trying to find a way to get back to the US.

Anyway, the point of all that is that i don't really think its a great country to go to and try and find an opportunity in - you need to have a job to go to most importantly, and then you can figure out if you can afford to live on the salary provided.

I'm sorry to be such a pedant, but I am.

Since when did the letter 'g' get left out of words?! Stunning, amazing, smowboading, climbing, breathtaking, watching, living, living - or is it just that your 'g' isn't working?!

LOL BecauseImWoeufIt - My thoughts exactly!

To answer the OP - Well, I'm currently loving life in Canada (BC) but I cannot truthfully see any reason whatsoever to move to a Canadian city from a life that you are happy with in the UK. We live rurally here and moved to, well, basically the wilderness, to be able to have more land than we could ever have afforded in the UK, and a more outdoor lifestyle for our children.

But the fact is, if you compare Canadian cities with UK cities, Canadian ones don't have -m-any selling points, imho!!

I could understand moving to Vancouver if you want the city life combined with access to good water and Winter sports, or Calgary if skiing is your real passion, since it's only a short drive to the mountains, but unless there's a great job offer I really cannot see any draw to Toronto if there isn't a considerable "push" away from your existing life in London...

many - doh!!

Ooops - apologies nailak - I think that the fact that you've missed the "g" out of "go" and "bridges" makes it likely that the spellings of stunnin' and amazin', etc., weren't intentional...

I seem to recall from one of nailaks other posts that the 'g' is missing on her keyboard.

If you are going alone with this, you are going to need loads of money up front, which will get frittered away. I would not make an international move unless it was paid for by an employer.

Toronto is just a big North American city. It is nothing like London. After years there, you would have all your favourite places to go, but this would be hard in two years with no friends to give you a leg up.

I would suggest living outside the city in a smaller more self-contained place. Oakland, off to the west, is a great city. It has a train service to downtown Toronto, so your DH will be fine. You should find it fairly easy to settle there if you are pushy enough.

How much support do you get from your family? If it's quite a bit, and bearing in mnd you have a second child arriving which does make things a lot harder, you have to have a good think about how you will cope with none at all. Also, how likely would you be to be able to come back to a similar level of employment (hard to guess the future of course but have your fields of work been affected by the recession for example). I lived abroad after university and loved it but I had no ties at all then so no longer term considerations.

The cold winters might be a deal breaker for me though! Good luck with your dc2 btw.

*Oakville

We have moved several times over the past 9 years, twice within Germany and then down to Switzerland. the DC didn't really notice or suffer from the first two moves as they were young, the last one was more difficult (they were 4yo and 6yo) and the next one will be tough.

We are likely to move within the next 2 years, so they will be at most 8 and 10yo. This will be more difficult, as they have good friends here.

Saying that, the life that we have here is fabulous and I am fully aware of the things that we can offer them that they would not have in UK. Plus the career opportunities for DH are much better.

I would not worry about uprooting the DC, if you prepare them well for it then it is normally ok. We know loads of expat families here.

You don't sound particularly keen on Canada though - or on Toronto. Would there be any other cities worldwide where you could imagine living? Any reason that you are thinking of Canada in particular?

One thing I can tell you is that the expats who come over here with open minds are the happy ones. Those who come over without being truly enthusiastic and ready to embrace their new life are the ones who do not settle. You have to be ready to throw yourself into your new life.

Thanks so much for all your posts - lots of food for thought! Basically, I don't think I'm very up for it and recognise that if we were going to go and it was going to work we would need to be 100% open minded and ready to embrace a new life. Interesting though about Oakville - that definitely sounds more up my street as I don't think I'm suited to living in the centre of a big city.

Now I just have to make sure DH is being realistic about what life would really be like in a big city like Toronto and how difficult it might be to find work etc. Perhaps a trip there when the new baby is old enough would be the best idea!
In answer to other questions, I do have a fair bit of family support (my mum looks after DD one day a week at the moment, and parents and both sisters are all within 1 hour's drive) so that's not something I want to leave behind in a hurry!

I hope I don't offend anyone but...I used to live near Toronto and found it dreadfully boring

Not to be nosy, but if you have a bit of itchy feet, would you consider going to Germany, if your DH is from there?

Think I'd stay put in your situation.

I think people underestimate the expenses here. Taxes are huge. We are protected as we are expats, but we'd not be able to live comfortably here if we had to pay local taxes. Renting in a decent area with a garden is $$$ (we're in Montreal, 10mins by bus to downtown), municipal taxes are high if buying. Our utility bill for 6mths was CA$2k, a bit of a shock, as our last apartment included heating. Anything imported is expensive, very high duties on them. They are very pro Canada. Ontario is more flexible than Quebec on this though.

Travel is hugely expensive unless you get last minute deals to the caribbean area. Size of country makes weekend trips away a pipe dream.

However if you DH is earning shedloads in finance, none of the above should matter that much to you. Just do your sums before you come over, especially on paying local taxes. Add to that the cost of 2 moves, here and back, is it worth it?

We certainly couldn't afford to do it, if our company weren't compensating for the moving and living.

Being a native of Toronto that moved to the uk 8 yrs ago I can help answer any questions you have if you like. Although the winters are cold, it's a dry cold and when not snowing you will most likely have bright blue sunny skies. I have to say I find winter here much more dreary.

Oakville is lovely, and a very easy commute into Toronto (transit is much cheaper too).

I don't think you'd have much trouble making friends, people seem to strike friendships very easily through clubs/sports etc. Also having DCs will help a lot!

Toronto does feel very small compared to London, but if you spend a lot of time there vs. just being a tourist you will never be bored. It's very multicultural and there are tons of festivals throughout the year.

I totally get not having family around especially with dc, as am in the same situation. You need to really think about that one. But if you feel a bit adventurous, and plan accordingly (ie. Health care is different, and most employers don't give benefits until 3 months into a job, but some do from day one... Also holiday allotment is a lot less than uk as standard). I think it could be a great experience.

On the family side, yes that is difficult. i have 2 DSs, 1 born over here, and while we have a few close friends, we don't want to take advantage of them for babysitting etc. We rarely go out on our own, or at all since DS2. I miss having people around that you've know your whole life. I went home in Jan for a month and took the boys and it was wonderful to chill out with cousins and sisters and my dad. I even managed to get out on the town with my cousins while there as a dear aunt babysat.

This I find is the most difficult aspect, and for 2-3years, you'll just start making great friends and feeling comfortable with them, and then be heading back. We're coming up 3yrs here now and have I would say 1/2doz VERY good friends, and the rest are acquantainces, it's hard to break into their local clique, as they've all know each other for years and years.

is his occupation on the current list of noc codes? the sw programme changed a couple of years ago, and it's quite difficult to get a job without pr, or pr without a job, if you're not on the list? you need to have a good read of current requirements to judge if it would be possible.

anyway, we're in alberta