Any Dutch MNetters? Have you seen Liz Jone's article on feminism in Holland?

[MmeLindt]

And can you tell me if there is a shred of truth in there?

here

Mmmmm. Well, I'm not Dutch but I've lived here for nearly a decade and TBH it's a long way from my experience of women over here. The Dutch women I know are much more feminist than those I knew it teh UK.

For a start I don't know any Dutch SAHMs, SHAPing is seen as a total cop out. Most mothers I know work 3 or 4 days a week, the Fathers tend to work 4 or 5 days. Some childless women I know work 4 or 4 1/2 days but most FT, empty nesters too.

Maternity leave is 12 weeks postpartum at full pay, there's nothing after that. The pressure for women to work is immense.

That is interesting. It seemed so far from the experience I have had of Dutch women (which is more of the trailing spouse variety, but still quite politically interested/hard working/feminist.)

That is the most agreeable fantasy. Abhor Liz Jones, but that is like life-porn for the full-time working mum ...

likely she just went there for a weekend, sat at a cafe in oud-zuid or pc hoofstraat for brunch on a saturday and drew conclusions after dragging on a joint.

It is certainly very close to reality in those circles.

I don't live there any more, but it sounds like a load of nonsense to me. None of my friends are SAHM, many of my male friends work part time too... even ones who are single and childless.

I think it is much more to do with a different attitude towards work-life balance, and the need for 'stuff' and status across genders rather than having anything to do with being feminist or not.

Mme lindt, all the expat dutch I met in Asia are quite the princess, That said, they ARE very opinionated

the same can be said of french women.

Obviously the world through the eyes of Liz Jones is very different from reality, but we already knew that. If you interview women who hang around in a cafe during the afternoon, you're not likely to catch stressed business women. And LOL at Liz Jones being busy or stressed.

That said, I am Dutch and I do feel strongly that there should be a work/life balance. I don't join the 24/7 culture in my company, I believe you should fit your tasks around your normal office hours and that exceptional hours are only for exceptional circumstances. I'm not sure if that's being Dutch or just having common sense.

What I do find different in the UK is that men don't tend to work part-time very often. My brother just had a baby and both himself and my SiL moved to a 4 day working week, with each having a day with their DD. It's not an uncommon arrangement in the Netherlands but I've never seen it in a British family. IMO it's the Dutch men which are more modern, not necessarily the Dutch women.

Agree cask, something has to be said about Dutch men.

Ciske!

I work 4 days and DH works 4 days. Most of my friends and colleagues that are parents work in a similar way, I don't personally know any SAHMs. I also know some childfree people that work 4 day weeks, I know others that do a five day in four. The system is flexible for all of us, men and women, parents and childfree, and we use it. Lord knows we pay enough tax to have this option.

I do not know anyone 'living off their husbands'. My DH has some colleagues whose wives stay at home, that is as much to do with childcare costs as anything else.

Liz Jones needs to feck off. You can pick two people from any country and make a case around that. Twit.

Not my experience at all. Most of the Dutch women I knew worked. The working week is structured very differently - there is next to no Sunday trading, the service sector doesn't work on Monday mornings and because schools shut for the afternoon on a Wednesday, many working parents take that off too. So, if you're trying to compare a full time job in NL to the UK, it is going to involve fewer hours.
On the whole, the Dutch work to live, not live to work. Hours of work are observed religiously and very few people would sacrifice time at home with the family for unpaid overtime (the Dutch are very family orientated). This tends to be the biggest shock for expat employees who turn up at the office at 8am to find no-one there - they're all doing the school run! Fathers are much more involved in the day to day of their children's lives.
I think a lot of this is due to the Calvanistic psyche of many Dutch peple, IMO. They live far more frugally than people in the UK - they don't seem to feel the need to consume so much stuff and therefore don't feel the pressure to work ridiculous hours to pay off massive credit card debt etc.

Liz Jones works a 75 hour week?? Really? Does she write very slowly, with her tongue sticking out as she goes, and have to keep sharpening her pencil and rubbing bits out?

Thanks all for your opinions, very interesting.

Slim
Many of the expat wives I know in Geneva are like that.

YY, I agree - this is more of a description of an expat wife, no matter what flavour of nationality.

Nunthewiser, that is very much what I observed when I lived in the netherlands.
And when we moved back to London, we figured within a couple of months that we were done with the rat race (we both worked in financial services) and jumped on an opportunity to move to Asia.

Actually I do find that with the dutch expat women are the most entreprizing. Even if its a small business from home or fairs, they tend to have a go at it.

Not my experience of Dutch women. In fact the only SAHMs I know are expats...

I'm in limburg so my geography of the north isn't so great, although I was told that the women she interviewed are from the British equivalent of Cheshire - so it's all a bit more "footballer's wives" than average woman in the street!

Liz Jones is off her rocker.

I agree with what most people have said here. It's about the work-life balance here in NL.

I'm a teacher and in the UK there would be no way, without children, that my school would support me working part-time. In my whole (secondary) school there were perhaps 2 or 3 part-time teachers, all with young kids. Here it's accepted as notmal that not everyone wants to work 5 days a week. At least 40% of the teachers in my school here in NL work part-time.

No one makes you feel guilty for not being in 5 days a week. My friends in the UK tease me about being a part-timer (I teach 4 days a week) but I know that I'm a more efficent teacher because I have that little bit more time for myself. I used to be ill quite frequently when teaching in the UK with colds and bugs, but here it just doesn't happen.

And, it's not just the ladies. Two of the male teachers in my department work only 3 days a week.

I don't know any SAHMs here.

apologies for my terrible typing

Article to which you linked no longer available but I have never read ANYTHING which she has written has ever rung true to me.....if that helps.....