Moving from Brussels to Ile de France/Paris - madness?

[amyboo]

Hello - desperately looking for some advice...

Me and DH have been living in the centre of Brussels (Etterbeek) for 9 years. I've now been offered a very good job with a good salary with a large international company in Elancourt (Yvelines - 78). As we have a DS (8 months) we'd be looking at living around the RER line C (probably Montigny Le Bretonneaux). I'd then have a short drive to work. DH however would be working near Pantin (13th arrondissement), so would face a commute of around 1h10 each morning and evening.

I guess what I'm asking is: would this be a bad move? DH is prepared to do the commute, as moving to Paris (where his company are HQ) would open up far more opportunities for him. I don't really know anything about Yvelines, or Elancourt, but it seems quite nice. Can anyone advise? Would it be good for families?

My big concern is sorting childcare for DS. He's currently in a creche in Brussels and really enjoys it, so I'd like him to be in creche again ideally. The French seem to go in for childminders a lot. Does anyone have any experience of these or creches? Also, any idea of cost?

I have 15 days to decide, so am trying to gather all the info we need to make an informed choice. I guess main motivations to move would be: better schools/education system, more open space, closer to family (in Toulouse), better jobs, etc.

ARGHHHH!!!!

There's a parents group in Paris www.messageparis.org/public_website/index.html which could you help you on childcare choices

I have lived in Montigny and didn't really like it. I would recommend Versailles or Viroflay if you can afford it.
Versailles has excellent schools and creches, and it's great for children.
Yvelines is the nicest banlieue of Paris and if you find the right place to live, it can be really pleasant.

Thanks for the answers.

maternelle - can I ask what you didn't like about Montigny? I've had a look at Versailles, as it would make DH's commute much easier, but I was concerned a) about property prices, and b) about the time it would take me to drive to Elancourt in the morning, and back in the evening. I would need to be near to DS to pick him up etc. Do you think the traffic would be bad going in that direction?

I've done a bit of research this morning, and it appears it would be impossible to get a creche place in any of the communes we were looking at - they all have waiting lists of around 1 year. So, we'd be looking at an assistante maternelle for a bit, at least to start with anyway. Does anyone have experiences with this?

I lived both in Versailles and in Montigny.
Montigny is a "new town" and doesn't have any soul to it. It sounds awful but it is close to Trappes, which has a lot of security issues (to put it mildly).
It is true that Versailles is not cheap. It is a wonderful place for kids to grow up though as it seems a bit stuck in the fifties.
How about places like Gif-sur-Yvette? This is in La Vallée de la Bièvre and there are lovely villages. The commute might be tougher though.
Plaisir or Rocquencourt might also be of interest.

My children are with an assistante maternelle. It works out quite cheap as soem of the fees are subsidised by the government. I think it works well for younger toddlers, but older ones need more interaction.

Don't know anything about Paris but DS2 went to an assistante maternelle from 5 months to 2 years and she was brilliant. He really bonded with her and I was totally comfortable leaving him there. I do think a creche is probably better from about 2 (we happened to move country hence the change for us) but it sounds like you could put him with an assistante maternelle and then do a creche when he turns 2?

Make yourself a list of what advantages/disadvantages you have living currently in Brussels and possible move to Ile de France and try and think beyond the current issues of childcare... think at least 2 or 3 years down the line.

We moved to Belgium after living through 4 years of having to commute to another country to work and living a virtually single parent lifestyle as one parent was at work abroad 5 days out of 7. We now live in the country where hubby works, I had to take a career break to acheive this, meant a drop in income, the upside is to have 2 parents at home at night 5 nights out of 7, the reverse of our previous lifestyle. From what you have written, I would really really think hard about going through a long commute, admittedly ours was longer and required staying overnight in hotels.

Funnily, we had a choice of Paris or Brussels when we moved, we chose Brussels because I preferred the school system and also because of the smallness of Brussels and large amounts of open space within and just outside the capital region. Must say though, either place to live is a thousand times better than where we moved from!!

I am from there (yvelines), been to bruxelles but never worked/lived there so no comment on that.
But the yvelines is a nice part of of ile de france with lots of villages/ big town you can go for depending on what you want, it does have a country feel to it too.
Lots of french people use creche (that is the main arrangement for working women) but if you gain a decent amount as you said in your post you will be right down the priority list for a place.

Elancourt/versailles is really quick trip without traffic not sure about at rush hours (you actually have a section of autoroute to go there). My guess is you are in the opposite direction of the traffic doing versailles/elancourt in the mornings and vice versa in the evenings.
If you want child minding close to your work have a look at
www.ville-elancourt.fr/-Petite-enfance-.html. You will find everything you want to know.

Versailles is a big town and as a range of different prices depending on which cartier you want to be.
"Le chesnay" is cheaper, right at the border of versailles and depending where you are you can be quite close to the train station (my parents leave close to there in Versailles).
I used to go for 1h20 min commute to go to university and work for about 6 years (OK no children). but it is not that bad any longer might be too much. If your husband is organised it could work very well. No driving though, you can work in the trains and make time for the family later. Versailles is good because it has 3 different stations going to paris (so in case of strikes or problems you have different options, some are run by the SNCF some by RATP).

there is quite a lot do to in versailles for small children too.
If you like country life you can have small villages around Elancourt but the commute might be more difficult for your DH.

Personally if your job is good and it create opportunities for your DH too, I would move, that part of Ile de france is better than Bruxelles, nicer, weather is better, more to do for the children and the adults. But then I was so bored as a kid visiting my family in Belgium that I have a negative view on living there (on top of that it rained all the time every time we went). So I am biased

Good luck.
If you want to ask specific questions, I have parents who live in Versailles/leChesnay, I lived in lepecq/St Germain-en-laye for ages and many freinds live north of the Yvelines or at Issy les moulinaux.

The best is there is a farm close to Elancourt where you can pick your own fruits/vegetables and flowers and kids loves it!!

Forgot to mention, "la maternelle" can start at 2.

Thanks everyone for your comments - they're really helpful.

maternelle - I've just done a bit of googling about Trappes, and I see it's got a lot of HLM housing, etc. Is that what you mean by "security issues"? Brussels has a big mix of minorities, so that doesn't bother me, but I don't want to live somewhere unsafe....

mamaloco - I like the idea of Elancourt, as it seems nice, but it would be a hassle for DH to get to the station every morning /evening (he doesn't drive), so we'd have to live near a station. Versailles looks nice, but we ideally want to buy a house after 6 months or so (we own our appartment in Brussels) and I don't think we could afford to buy there. Maybe I should look around Le Chesnay and see what prices are like. Do you have any idea about websites where I could look for rental property?

natation - Do you really feel the education system is better in Brussels than in France? One of our reasons for looking at France is exactly that! We've heard a lot about a lack of places in schools, and overcrowding. Can I ask which bit of Belgium you live in? If we stay, we'd be looking to move out of the centre of Brussels within 18 months, to somewhere commutable by train.

You should get a nounou (a nanny/housekeeper) because that way you won't have to worry about getting back from work in time for crèche or assistante maternelle pick up. It will solve a lot of your problems and she will do all your housework/laundry and a lot of your cooking.

Montigny le Bretonneux is a dump. Awful after Etterbeek.

bonsoir - Can't really afford to have a nanny, and I don't really like the idea after DS has got used to the creche and being around other kids. What is it about Montigny that you find to be a dump? Etterbeek is not exactly fantastic - I've lived in various parts of it, and some bits are very ugly/run down.

Etterbeek is very close to the centre of Brussels, with all the entertainments that Brussels contains - Montigny le Bretonneux is quite a long way from central Paris. So there won't be much fun on your doorstep.

Nounous are surprisingly cheap - you should take a long hard look at the different tax breaks you get for different sorts of childcare. Nounou plus halte garderie (occasional/drop in childcare) can be a good solution.

There are lots of nice places to live in the Western suburbs if that's your cup of tea. Versailles or Saint-Germain-en-Laye are full of families and the infrastructure they require.

If you are looking for a house lechesnay is probably more expensive than versailles then!
Search for "Immobilier 78" and you will find most town ads.

Can you go there for a week end? to make up your mind you could see what the town are like.
St germain en laye is great with kids but it will be quite a journey for you and your DH, you probably want to stick to the south east of Yvelines, to fit both your commutes.

You also need to bear in mind that accommodation in Paris/suburbs is 3x more expensive per square metre than in Brussels/suburbs, so you will in all probability be downgrading your accommodation quite significantly (unless you are going to be earning 3x as much as in Brussels!).

Wow - more responses! Thanks everyone.
mamaloco - unfortunately, because of the time of year, we probably can't fit in a visit before we need to decide. I only have 15 days from receipt of the offer (later this week) to decide, and we're away this weekend and next! I was there for my interview - but i was literally a 15 minute look around Montigny!
bonsoir - to be honest, I never use the "entertainments" that Brussels contains anymore. Most of my friends have kids and own their places, so we tend to do dinners/afternoons at friends' houses, rather than go out in town. I don't shop in town either really... So, I guess what I'm saying is the suburb thing doesn't bother me really.

I am not talking about mix of minorities. I lived in Green Lanes and Walthamstow in London and loved it.

Trappes is awful. It is seriously dodgy to go out at night and you do get hassled in the RER on daily basis. There is a general climate of fear as one of the worst "cité" of the Banlieue is in Trappes. Problem is that the closest shopping center to Trappes is in Montigny.

There are a lot of lovely places in Yvelines, Versailles, Le Chesnay, Rocquencourt, St Cyr even.

maternelle - thanks for clarifying. I really don't like the sound of that... With regards to St Cyr, Le Chesney, etc - are any of these "affordable"? We'd be looking to buy a house ideally after 6 months or so. We'd have a combined income of around ?5500 a month.

I am not sure about the prices of properties at the moment.
There are far more apartments than houses and I think you should find a decent apartment with your budget but again, I am not a specialist.

It seems that you can rent somewhere nice in Versailles for ?1,800 a month or so, and it would be cheaper outside Versailles.

This seems to be a good site www.seloger.com

Thanks for the response. I'm really getting nowhere with this decision. Me and DH were both feeling quite positive about it at the weekend, but he's now having second thoughts (his jobs here is good - manager of a small team - and he might have to take a step back down if we move, although long-term prospects might be better in Paris). I'm concerned about trying to find somewhere to live and not being able to live close enough to work to make the whole thing worthwhile. The original idea was that we'd live close to my work so that me and DS wouldn't have to travel much.

Big, big sigh.

Not an easy decision definitely. Plus the long commute for him would not be ideal. Let us know what you decide.

amyboo - it really is totally feasible for your DH to commute into Paris from the Western suburbs and for you to drive to work from a home base within the Western suburbs - loads of people do that. But, at your salary, you are unlikely to be able to buy a house - you are looking at an apartment, realistically. And I still think you need a nanny.

Life is much more expensive in Paris than in Brussels!

Someone with knowledge of the education system in France can correct me here, but I believe in the French state system, you are "told" which school (ie strict catchment area) your child can attend, according to where you live. In the alternative Catholic system, making a bit of an assumption here but there are no rigid catchment areas.

In Belgium, local schools are either run by the commune/province, by the language community, by a religious body (99% Catholic) or by a non-religious body, the majority of which are also "method" schools. You pay only fees for the "method" schools and this is rarely more than 1k per year. You can send your child to any local school, only the most popular schools give priority to children living close by, you have a choice of the 4 types of school. So choice far greater than in the French system. Maternelle also starts at 2 1/2 instead of 3 in France, most maternelles are either attached or near to a primaire so in fact you can stay at the same school though all 4 maternelle and 6 primaire years, primaire lasts an extra year, I see this a a big plus, only one level of secondaire school, again 4 types of secondaire and you can choose a general one/technical/professional one, according to a child's abilities (in this respect similar to the French system).

The French schools in some areas of Brussels are very sought after, Etterbeek has the most sought after secondaire in the city, St Michel, with half a dozen other secondaires close by with fine reputations. I suppose this is not relevant if you were thinking of moving out of the city anyway. I do like also the fact that you MUST learn Dutch in French schools and vice versa, children in the Brussels area at least are very often multi-lingual.

The after-school activities in France and Belgium are I am guessing pretty well matched in terms of variety and costs. Child care is also very cheap in Belgium, the only places I know where people pay more than 500euro a month for creche / childminder is at 2 chains of creches in Brussels catering mainly to the expat population.

In the end, only you can weigh up the pros and cons of Brussels versus Ile de France. I know I'd be happy in either place, so long as there is no long commute!

Good luck