Another moving to Belgium! Any advice on local schools and kids dance clubs welcome

[nearlyfiftymum]

Hi, I'm new to this so please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong.
DH job relocation means we're moving to belgium in Jan 2010. A big and slightly scary undertaking but we're having to go for it. Our priority is a welcoming local school for our 2 boys age 5 and 7 in a small community commutable distance to Zaventem. With a dance club for dance crazy 5 year old his priority. Safe enough for boys on bikes. Not worried if french or flemish as they don't really know either it's the school/area that matters. (We will be taking language lessons when there). On a tight budget too with renting. Are we expecting too much? Have visited a couple of times but ending up spending most time in parks and pools with kids rather than area browisng. DH quite taken with Hoeilaart but that might be a commute to far. Any suggestions, advice, reassurance very welcome.

Welcome! If you want to commute to Zaventem, don't move too far south of the Ring/E40 - the traffic is a killer in the morning - particulary the E411. If you can avoid using the ring entirely I would. Communes on the Eastern side of Brussels - Tervuren, Wezembeek Oppem, Kraainem, Woluwe would all be easy - though they are popular expat areas and tend to be expensive.

Zaventem itself is nice (that's where I live , and DH works). Not huge but nice park/pool, lots of shops and restaurants. Easy to get into Brussels/Leuven by public transport. Leuven is a lot bigger, and a University town - lots of atmosphere and bustle. You could also look at places such as Kortenberg/Everberg. Well served with public transport and there is a British Supermarket there. There are some lovely villages in the countryside round there, but they were a bit remote for me. You might like that of course!

The further you go out from Brussels, the cheaper it tends to be. Immoweb is a great site for house searching.

Hi there,

welcome (soon) to Belgium, hope you find the place as great as we do.

I can only echo what Portofino has already written, AVOID if possible the R0 or E411, Hoeillart is therefore not really a good place to live if commuting by car to Zaventem, house prices are also inflated by the high number of expats there who send their children to BSB, St Paul´s, ISB, the international schools in the south and east areas in and around Brussels.

Don´t worry about dance lessons, children´s activities are plentiful and cheap, you´ll find dancing courses all over the place.

You are looking for a welcoming school too, that may be a bit more difficult to get spot on, people choose schools very much word of mouth and reputation in the greater community, you do not have this luxury as outsiders to be able to tap into locals and their opinions so quickly or easily. Unless you are fixed on a certain area or school, at the moment with the excess of rental housing and rental prices going down, perhaps it would be wise to find a house first and school second.

You also would like a good easy commute to Zaventem, small community, tight budget. Here is what the communes/gemmenten around Zaventem offer in these respects :

Woluwe St Pierre (1150), Kraainem (1950), Wezembeek-Oppem (1970), all French speaking majority, some fantastic schools, some well chosen spots in these communes would fit the "small community" criteria, depending on where exactly in Zaventem you are going to, you could avoid the R0, but one BIG BUT and that is that you will struggle to find a 3 bed house for less than 1300 euro per month, it is one of the most desirable areas to live in the Brussels area.

Tervuren (3080)including the villages of Duisburg, Vossem and Moorsel and Bertem (3060) including Leefdaal (3061), Dutch speaking, some reasonably rural areas, some cheaper housing than the communes mentioned above except the areas closest to the British School, again great local Dutch schools, but you can get all you are looking for closer to Zaventem.

Kortenerg (3070) including Erps-Kwerps (3071) and Everberg and Meerbeek (3078), Stenokkerzel including and Melsbroek and Perk (all 1820), Kampenhout (1910) all a good commute and you can avoid the R0, generally a bit cheaper than the above Dutch areas, again good Dutch schools.

Zaventem (1930) including the villlages of Nossegem (also 1930), Sterrebeek (1933) ans St Stevens Woluwe (1932). Zaventem centre is more of a town, the other parts of the gemeente are more rural, Dutch, easiest commut of all the areas, great schools, can avoid R0, I really think either this area or Kortenberg etc fit your criteria best. Sterrebeek is probably the most expensive part of Zaventem, as it borders Tervuren and Wezembeek-Oppem, but in the south side of the village, access to Brussels is even possible by tram, yet you are also in the countryside. You should be able to find a 3 bed house here for 1000 euro per month.

I hav given the post codes as you might find searching the Immoweb website easier if you have them to hand. You can also use www.vlan.be and choose a central pojnt and limit your search by 5 or 1à kms for example.

Hope all this helps.

There is a lovely little school in Nossegem, and I know another Xpat family with children in the school at Erps-Kwerps. I know she has found the natives particularly friendly there. .

Natation is right, the activities laid on for children here are second to none. You will have no trouble finding something that suits. And they are tax deductible! And this is a nation of cyclists - bike paths everywhere.

PS - another point worth bearing in mind (at this expensive time of year) that the Dutch education system is more highly regarded in Belgium, and they provide all the materials needed for school - vs French system where they expect you to buy everything yourself and there are continual demands for cash for this and that!

Belgo is the expert, but I think 25 euros per child per year is the most the Dutch system expect you to pay...

Small point, The Dutch speaking schools are regarded in their entirity for the whole of Belgium as better standards than the French speaking ones. However, in Brussels, the Dutch speaking schools are so full of French speakers, typically 80% French speakers that they have problems in many of these schools in getting the French minority students to sufficiently fluent in Dutch, bear this in mind if you are interested in a Dutch speaking school in Brussels. Finally, French schools in the more affluent areas are on a par academically with Dutch schools. The Dutch schools´ better reputation is down 1) to the Dutch area being as a whole for the country better off financially than the French area and 2) the fact that the French community choose to spend less monetarily on their schools, shows in the infrastructure of their buildings and also the fact that you pay for more things in a French school - expect 100-200 per year at maternelle (that´s 2 1/2 to 6 years old), increasing in primaire (6 to 12 years old).

natation, I wish I'd met you when I moved...

www.immoweb.be/en/Rent.estate.cfm?idbien=2818259&ongletactif=2&jpgnameinp=2818259_9.jpg&xincludedetail=2&mycurrent_section=Rent&xbg=N#onglet

Just an example of what you can get in Nossegem. You can knock 20 per cent off most prices.

OP, if you are using a relocation agent just be aware that they are not well regarded here, suspicions of backhanders. We refused help from a relocation agent allocated to us and found what we wanted rather than what a relocation agent wanted to "sell" us at a commission.

www.sintlambertusschool-nossegem.be/content/verwelkoming

This is the school in Nossegem, it s Catholic but more than half Belgian schools are, do not let that put you off, this is a small school, only 10 classes, most schools in Brussels for example have double that number.

I love how the Belgians see no point in "presenting" a house for rent or sale! We noticed that there were a lot of properties where maybe they inherited a house and just put it up for rent (Belgians do tend to like a new build) exactly as it came. 70s kitchens and no plug sockets abound! There are some lovely renovations on offer too though.

We personally have lived in 2 new builds. Other thought. Standard lease here is 9 years, with penalties to pay if you move out within the first 3 years. There ARE some properties offered with shorter leases. You do an entrance survey - for which you have to pay - and absolutely everything is recorded.

There are generally NO light fittings or curtain fixtures. You do them yourself and put it "right" when you leave. Decorating/maintenance costs are amortised over a 9 year period, but otherwise you are expected to leave the place exactly as you found it. We were billed for non working halogen bulbs in the bathroom for example. Maybe an advantage if you take an older property....

As a renter though you are very well protected. Rent can only increase by indexation. Your lease is registered with a central agency. You can only be asked to leave under certain, very limited circumstances. There is none of this 6 month tenancy/ get thrown out stuff like they have in the UK.

ooh natation, that is round the corner from me! When we moved here, dd had already done 2 years in the french system and we debated long and hard as to whether to move her! 2 years on, part of me wishes we had.

How old is your daughter Portofino? Is your daughter at school in Brussels? If your daughter is anywhere near secondary education, bear in mind if your daughter does not have a priority place from primaire linked to a secondaire or another reason to have priority, special needs or teachers child for example, if secondary enrolments stay as they were this year (3 systems in last 3 years, this years system more successful than previous 2 so likely to stay, modified perhaps), then any child living a long way from primaire, long way from desired secondaire, you are unlikely to get a place in one of the best French secondaires in Brussels. I know children less than 5kms from a good school end up with crappy alternatives because 5kms was too far. If your daughter is in this situation, bear this in mind. If she is still young, 8 or less perhaps, changing language should be relatively easy.

My dd started Primaire in Brussels this week. She is settled and happy and has lots of friends and I would not easily choose to move her to a Dutch speaking school at this point. She has done 4 years of Maternelle in French!

More likely, WE will move in the troisieme cycle back into Brussels or somewhere in Wallonia. I have a few years to research Secondaire I hope! School places not withstanding, I wouldn't be happy with the commute by bus from here to Woluwe St Lambert for example (being the likeliest nearest french speaking school)

Which ones are the best Secondaires in Brussels? I have no clue! Til this week I had a small child in maternelle and have never given a thought to such things!

Academically best in central Brussels
Robert Catteau
Emile Jacqmain
Adolph Max

eastern side
St Michel
Sacré-Coeur de Lindhout
St André
Mater Dei
Dames de Marie
Jean Absil
Don Bosco WSL

north side
Sacré-Coeur Jette
St Pierre

This is not a full list, just from verbal reputation. Unless you live very near + primaire is near any of these schools or unless you have priority, this year no chance of a child from furth afield in getting a place on this years enrolment system.

You can look on the followinfg link to get an idea of how popular each secondaire is - those marked as full, you can look at the listed length of waiting list, those still with places, well those are the less popular schools.

[[http://www.inscription.cfwb.be/index.php?id=295&no_cache=1&tx_cfwbdecretecole_pi1[province]=Bruxelles-capitale%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&tx_cfwbdecretecole_pi1[pec]=oui&tx_cfwbdecretecole_pi1[place]=non&tx_cfwbdecretecole_pi1[submit]=Rechercher&tx_cfwbdecretecole_pi1[pointer]=3
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Welcome to Belgium Nearlyfiftymum!

I see you are getting great advice from the Usual Suspects

I'm in the flemish town of Leuven and can recommend a dance centre here called Aike Raes if you cannot find anything closer.

and La Vierge Fidèle, forgot that one, not far from WSL - quite a choice of good schools there, Dames de Marie, SC de Lindhout, Don Bosco are all in the commune, really the only school in WSL without a good reputation is the Athenée Royal which is why it is the only school still with places in 1st secondary.

Anyway Portofino, I´m sure you´ll find out from the other parents at you daughter´s primaire which are the favoured schools in your area. 6 years is a long time still and for sure the system will change somewhat, but probably never return to the camping routine or complete lottery fiasco last year.

Hi there again Nearlyfifytmum,

thought you might find useful these links too.

The first one is the train network map. Zaventem is on line 36 which runs between Brussels and Leuven. Nossegem, Erps-Kwerps, Kortenberg are all villages on this line, you can get to Zaventem central, Zaventem airport, Brussels and Leuven from these villages, all these places are quite close and Brussels to Leuven is only about 30 minutes, jsut to give you an idea about travel times for commuting.

hari.b-rail.be/hafas/folders/map_fr.htm

The second link is the the local bus network - there are only 3 for the whole of Belgium, STIB only in Brussels, de Lijn in the Dutch north and going into Brussels, TEC for the French south and going into Brussel. De Lijn is the company which runs the buses in the Zaventem area. Its website is a pain to use, finally some of it is in English, the route planner sucks (better to use the train website route planner on www.sncb.be which covers all modes of transport) Anyway, here is a map of the bus network, it annoyingly cuts of the central area of Zaventem, but you can see where Zaventem airport is, Nossegem, Kortenberg, Erps-Kwerps are etc.

www.delijn.be/images/vervoergebied_leuven_tcm7-1681.pdf

Public transport is free in many circumstances for children under 12 in Belgium, for adults it can be still very cheap. It may be wise, if you are looking at villages, to look at the public transport in that village.

As usual, I come late to the party!

I put my DCs into a French-speaking school because my French is better than my Dutch. However, I wish I'd chosen the Dutch-speaking system. As natation and porto say, it has a better reputation and puts more money into its schools (if there is money left over in any other department they send it in the direction of education). Also, Dutch is grammatically closer to English and a simpler language than French so easier for the children to learn. My dniece and dnephew are in the Dutch-speaking system and this has definitely been the case for them (and I found Dutch easy to learn). If you want to live near Zaventem, the schools will be Dutch-speaking in any case (being outside of Brussels, they would be fewer French-speakers wouldn't there natation?). My b-i-l lives in Tervuren and works in Zaventem but tends to go through small roads to get there to avoid the ring so you might be better off looking at something over that side.

Again, I echo natation with regard to secondary schools. You used to be able to go to any school with your child's report and they would decide whether or not they would take him/her. They decided that wasn't fair so they had a queueing system like they have in the Dutch-speaking schools. That didn't work either because there are fewer good French-speaking schools so people were camped out for days in front of them! The (long-awaited) system now is that you have to fill in a (from the sounds of it) pretty complicated form. There are some feeder schools so you might want to make sure the primary you choose is a feeder to a good secondary if you are staying long enought for that to be an issue. I was going to change my dd from a school with a very high academic level to one with a lower level when they had the queueing system but heard, in time, that they were going to change to the present system. I've therefore kept her at her present school as this is a feeder for Jean Absil (one of the schools mentioned by natation).

Ooh, another thing about school costs. The state schools are cheaper than the Catholic schools. You can often be asked to cough off for a variety of things in the church schools.

Another useful link for transport:

www.stib.be/index.htm?l=en

This is the metro/tram/bus website for Brussels. Children under 12 travel free. You just have to download a form from this site (plus a few more administrative steps) and you will receive a special MOBIB credit card for each child you apply for.

Natation, where can you see the number of pupils on the waiting list on that website?

Found it natation!

If you put the STIB map together with the De Lijn map, it just about covers the public transport system around Zaventem. We live on the edge of east Brussels and find it a pain that nearly all maps available get cut off in that area, one for Brussels, another for Vlaams Brabant whiich is where Zaventem is situated, often sit with 2 maps in front of me just for a short journey a few kms further east.

I also used Google Earth maps when choosing where to live, to see how rural or built up areas were. I also got a better idea of how far things were from home, such as the local swimming pool and the school and shops. Found this and a traditional pull-out map of the greater Brussels area immensely useful - found one which was lamininated and marked potential schools and houses on the map.

LongtimeinBrussels, no the secondary enrolment forms were very simple this year, one personalised form you give to you first choice school plus another with up to 9 alternative choices which you give in a sealed envelope again to the first choice school. For children without priority - and you really need to check which primaires get priority to secondaires, our primaire was disenfranchised (désadossée) and had priority dropped last year to a presigious secondaire, this information is not commonly known oer available, if I didn´t speak French, I would have no idea of what happened. The complicated enrolment formula is worked out by software, only relevant for children without priority, measures distance between home and primaire, primaire and secondaire and home and secondaire, all multiplied together, child with the lower number (nearest to both primaire and secondaire) gets the lowest number and better chance of school place. Hence if you live in Vlaams Brabant, 5 or 10 km from the nearest French secondaire in Brussels, your chances of a place at one of the desirable schools is much lower than if you live in Brussels and near to primaire and secondaire. Sorry yes it is comlicated isn´t it.

www.inscription.cfwb.be/index.php?id=291
Here is even the complicated instructions on how you work out formula yourself for the "indice" number attributed to each child against each application for enrolment into secondaire. For those children living quite far from their primaire or from theis desired secondaire, it would be very useful though to do the Maths, then ask the desired secondaire what their chances are of getting a place are, based on this years enrolments, because if you fail to get your first choice, places at 2nd 3rd and 4th etc choices are even harder to obtain, as most children got their first choice this year, 95 plus per cent, the minority without places had a terrible time finding places.

Ha, ha, it would appear that way! For the past two years our school has been adosséed with Absil (it was also the case before the queueing system too). I did hear that it might only be adosséed until those already in primary when the queueing system was started (ie those who had possibly chosen the primary school with the adosséed secondary school in mind) had gone through the primary system. Not sure if that's correct or not. It was certainly in place for those starting in secondary this year and as far as I know for those starting next year as my dd will be (as they've only just changed the system and it took them until Easter to work it out I'm hoping they won't change it before dd leaves next summer especially as they normally do the enrolments in November). One of the problems of this system is that if you don't choose the adosséed school as your first choice but then don't get in your first choice (highly likely), you lose your priorité for the adosséed school, leaving you with a third or maybe lower choice, or worst case scenario, no school at all!

What years are your dcs in natation?

Okay, so I have to hope that Paradis remains adosséed to Absil because we live in Auderghem and so our indice isn't very good. Silly really because it doesn't take into account that I live right next to a metro station and don't have a car so getting to Paradis and Absil is much easier for us than getting to a school closer to us.

I wouldn`t have thought the indice to be too bad between Auderghem and Paradis des Enfants, depends on where in Auderghem you are, some parts of the commune must be alot less than 2km away, even if your child does not get priority this year. But I do knowin Auderghem, popularity of schools goes St Julian-Parnasse, AR Auderghem then St Adrien-Val Duchesse, but I would imagine that the most desired schools for children living in Auderghem would in fact be St Hubert in W-B and Jean Absil, followed by the Auderghem schools. We had St Julian down as choice number 4, on the advice of our head who said it was a friendly smaller school and still quite academic (as it does Latin). The best piece of advice I got from the head of primaire was to put as manay choices as possible on the form with up to 9 choices, as these would be the only places your child would be considered in the second round, if you fail to secure a place at the first round, and that you should put quite a few schools that are likely to be full, not 9 other ultra popular schools like St Michel, or you´d end up with no schools from the total of 10, then you would be into the third round and still looking for a school when 99% of children have already secured places and the choice will be very limited.

LongtimeinBrussels, I´m sure you will be fine at the end of the day. At least this system is better than the lottery, that really was the very very worst system.

Oh and there is the added complication of calculating in the same "réseau" eg if you are at an official school (like Paradis des Enfants) measurements are done against other schools in that official réseau . I haven´t quite understood whether it makes a difference if the desired secondaire is in a different réseau, eg going from primaire officielle to secondaire libre. At that point in the instructions, I am total lost, thankfully all schools we chose were the same réseau as the primaire, so didn´t ponder too much on that.

To the OP, thankfully you don´t need to worry too much about secondaries with a 5 and 7 year old, and if you choose the Dutch system, well schools are seen as being "good" almost universally, so you usually just choose the nearest, unlike the French system where schools vary alot more.

Thanks very much for all the replies and info. You seem very knowledgeable about Belgium and schools.
Will be looking to see what I can find out about the areas near Zaventem you mention. It has broadened our outlook. Most if not all schools seem to have websites which I hope may give an initial feel of the school and I have found the ministry of education website with school inspection reports(google translate tool couldn't cope with the length of one but I suppose this means they are thorough!)The public transport links and the size of an area is a good point thanks. One of the reasons we were looking small is I will need all activities on school days within walking or biking distance - this is what we have here and it works well as DS's aren't lazy and I don't drive and we only have the one car anyway. Loads for me to think about and research, thanks again mums.