My ds wants to be a dd.

[Spidermama]

He has only just turned five but my ds is more 'girlie' than any girl I've met. He loves dresses and butterflies. He openly says he wants to be a girl. He has a picture of Marylin Monroe above his bed. He demanded a sewing machine for his 5th birthday present.

I know he's young, but he's very girlie.

I know that gender isn't as polarised as our society would have us believe and that it's a spectrum thing.

I wonder how best to care for him. I want him to be himself and I have no hang ups about whomever he turns out to be, BUT I worry for him because sad as it is society still isn't tolerant of girly boys. Esepcially during the school years.

On world book day, for example, he wanted to be a fairy god mother. He should have been a fairy god mother. He had all the kit, he would have thouroughly enjoyed it and done it brilliantly. But I gently dissuaded him as he's in reception, in a big primary school and I thought he'd be teased.

Was I right?

We live in Brighton by the way, Thank God!

I guess he is now settled in reception, but one question I would have is whether the school is the best one for him? No idea what your local choices (if any) are, or whether private is an option. Just I think that different schools will have different tolerance levels (small one form intake infant school having very different feel to 3 form primary school to smaller private school which can be girl dominated).

My 2 sons are almost polarised: with ds1 I went for a boys school, as I didn't think that he would cope with being in a class with more girls than boys (and by going to a mixed I couldn't guarentee that that wouldn't happen). Ds2 plays Lazytown, but always has to be Stephanie, or plays the part of the "sister" whenever we play familes etc. Ds2 is due to start reception in the same school this year (we think that it will be good for him as it has a strong musical and drama bias), so we await to see what changes will occur.

It sounds as if so far he is very comfortbale with his sense of self, so you've done a terrific job this far Spidermama. I'm sure that you'll be able to guide him during the next few years as well.

Spidermama - you're supportive and accepting of him and that's the important thing. The rest of the world may not be so kind on occasion but he will manage to deal with that if he needs to with your help.

I have a quite flamboyant gay friend who was teased a lot at school. He's a very witty and assertive person and came through it (and remember things are a lot better now, if still not perfect by any means). The thing that hurt him, and still hurts, is that it was very obvious to his parents that he was gay but they continually condemned homosexuality in front of him and ridiculed his dress and mannerisms.

Not that your son's preferences have anything to do with sexuality necessarily. It is ludicrous that tomboys are accepted without comment but the male equivilent still seems to make some people nervous.

Spidermama - the general consensus here seems to be that this is a very lucky boy to have you as his mum and I have to agree...if you and his dad are supportive of him then he will be ok. It won't stop him experiencing teasing at school but it will make a world of difference to know that you love him whatever happens.

I don't have any great words of wisdom from my own experience unfortunately...I was a weird child with not many friends but not obviously boyish or anything like that, and I didn't get bullied. However, a lot of the time I felt unsupported and unloved by my parents so was not able to confide in them about anything - I tended to keep my feelings to myself as they could be very scornful of me. And they were very homophobic. From everything you say, you and your dh are the polar opposite of all that

One thing I can say, though, is that in general it is so much easier to come out these days, and things are changing for the better all the time. When dp and I got together, the age of consent for gay men was still 21. Clause 28 was still in force in schools. If he does turn out to be gay/bisexual/whatever (still a big if, imo - he is very young and could be into something totally different a year from now!) then things may not be as difficult as you fear.

agree with weasel. i think the main thing is having a supportive family that is behind you come hell or high water.

i've found myself trying to modify my ds2s behaviour to protect him ( he wanted to wear tights under his skirt for world book day, i suggested trousers. we keep dressing up for special occasions and the house because he's 'getting to be a big boy now and sequins aren't appropraite for the local asda.'. this is really because i can't be bothered with 'your daughter looks pretty dressed as a ....' comments ( cue withering look, he's a boy) I think mine is a wee bitolder than yours and I'm starting to try and establish some boy references (I'm a single parent and although he sees his dad regularly it isn't the same as having a bloke in the house all of the time..) but i am very concious of boys don't/can't do x, because i would never say girls don't/can't do y.

his elder brother is wheedling for tae kwon do lessons (pestering, for ever) and when i give in i will send ds2 along as well - not to make him into a little action man or macho him up, but because i want him to be able to protect himself against the sort of 'people' who roughed up the boy george boy. and of course girls go to teh class to.

his best friends at school are rosie an independant little tom boy thing and phillip who is kind, considerate and bookish. being bookish is probably 'gay' enough for some little toe rags to have a go in our school, let alone the sequins... but he's doing just fine and i'm sure your ds will too.

you sound like a wonderful mummy spidermama, and you DS sounds adorable.

you are supporting him fantasically -but he is only 5! He may grow out of it - he may not, but it sounds like what ever happens he will have alot of love and support.

Do you think he may be gay? (sorry if thats completly off target - i think its just ana assumption that girly boys may be..)

but i was a complete Tomboy, i wouldnt touch a doll, i had cars, trains , DIY toy sets ect, i was a tomboy until i was about 15.

i cut all my hair off, i was called a boy in school, a lesbian ect - but it didnt bother me as i was happy, and my family supported me (well my mum an sisters anyway.

everyone thought i was a lesbian - i even heard my dad crying at a new years eve party saying i was a dyke he never said anything to my face of course - but that did hurt

then i met my DP, and im pretty damn girly now! lol

and i think it surprised everyone

im not sure what im trying to say, i guess its that he is young, and just let him go his own way, it may not nessecerially go the way you expect - but if it does it seems you will love him to pieces and be there for him anyways,

i hope non of this offended you, i just know what its like to go against the grain when it comes to not doing what a gender is 'supposed' to do.

xxx

Spidermama.

My DS1 was very much like this until he started Y1. He would always ask for a butterfly or fairy if face painting was on offer and his favourite colour was pink.

He was adamant that he wanted to be a girl when he grew up.

In the blink of an eye he turned into a swashbuckling, boys only, football loving boy's boy.

I feel quite sad as that lovely sensitive nature seems to be dwindling by the day.

Have you seen the film Ma Vie en Rose ? If you want cheering up, see if you can get hold of it on video. It shows a boy in exactly your ds's position, except possibly slightly older, and has a lovely happy ending that doesn't involve the hero discovering his inner Rambo.

you know what spider? you are a wonderful mother. you are what all mums should be, totally 100% there for your child. whoever your son turns out to be, he will, first and foremost (and the only thing that matters), be a lovely person. because of you. xx

Just wanted to say spidermama that you are doing a brill job by letting him be himself AND teaching him about life outside your home.

He sounds delightful. I'm upset cos my wonderful 10 year old grandson has just discovered football and it's SOOO boring. I'm hoping it's just a phase and the bookish side wins out!!

Persephone he's the third of four. The oldest is a girl. Funnily enough he suggested being the wicked witch of the west too, then changed his mind. Your little boy sounds gorgeous.

I think you're right. I've had some really uptight, scary reactions, from adults, when I let him wear what he wants. It has really put me off. There was also a thread on here which revealled to me just how shocked even modern people can be when they see what they perceive as gender rules being broken.

Kittylette I know it's a bit early to say, but he's very very gay in terms of his references and preferences. It's absolutely fine with me, I just need to know the best way of arming him, or helping him arm himself, against society's predjudices. Sorry your dad hurt you.

Lovely post mamama, thanks. I'm so glad there are more like him around. I can't wait 'til he meets one. Perhaps he'll inspire another to be himself.

Weasel I'm glad your experience is that things are better than they were. He's at a fantastic but very big school and atm at least he seems to be more than holding his own. Perhaps next time I won't dissuade him from being a fairy god mother on world book day. As pointed out I certainly don't want him to think I disapprove and he now knows the arguments for and against.

What a lovely supporitve thread. Last time I wrote about this was my first MN thread, entitled Boys in dresses. Yes or no? He was only three at the time and the thread horrified me as it was peppered with some really hysterical, uptight posts. I began to wonder if I'd been naive and ignorant of rampant predjudice. Also though people pointed out that our children have to learn about societal conventions for their own good.

I like this thread much better.

MytwoP thank you so much. >

Frogs I saw that film just last week after it was recommended to me by another MNer. It was quite an emotional experience watching it. DS has now seen it too. The adults in it are, on the whole, extremely uptight about the kissue, but Ludovic is so beautiful and still comes off best.

Awww SM you've made me feel all warm and fuzzy
What a fab mum you are.

FWIW, I have a distant cousin that was very much like your ds. I remember one particular xmas he really really wanted a certain barbie. Nothing else, just this Barbie. His dad was utterly mortified (stupid old farmer type, he's horrid) but his mum just went along with it.
Itw as great going to visit because he had things like Fashion Wheels and I have never seen as many doll and Barbie clothes in my life!

Anyway fast forward to now and hes studying fashion design and very very happy.

Spidermama, you are obviously a very caring loving mum. Continue to let your son be who he wants to be. He will no doubt experience teasing at some time, but then in all honesty who hasn't? and the reasons for teasing - well there's plenty of them! I was teased at school beacuse I was fat, my brother was teased because he wasn't very bright, my DS gets teased because he wears glasses and can't play football for very long because he gets out of breath (asthma). There will alsways be something the other little darlings will find to tease children about. The main point is the affect it has on DS. I boost my DS confidence in so many ways and he is very intelligent so I am able to explain to him that people who tease are just people who are so unsure of themselves and lack confidence in themselves that they try and turn the attention on others by making fun of them. I tell him not to react, just to say 'whatever' and walk away. However if any one hits you - hit back! He is 7 though so can understand this. Your DS is a little young for this.

There was a boy in my DS nursery who was exactly like your DS - he loved to dress up in his mom's nightdress and pretend to be a princess - she let him get on with it. You're DS seems to know his own mind - I think the fact that he has not let the teasing that has occured so far to bother him says he is a strong character and he will deal with it.

He can battle others easier than feelings inside himself. If he feels he wants to dress up as a princess it is easier to go ahead and do that than repress that urge. He will and can battle with teasing if he has to in order to continue to do what he wants to do.

Your DS is 5 - I don't know him - but lady - I admire him and you must be so proud of him.

Good luck.
With love
Jaynerae.

I am Jaynerae. Thanks.

Hi! Can't say anything better than some of the brilliant posts have already said, but just wanted to say your description of your dh has kept me smiling all day!

Your ds is very lucky to have such wonderful, supportive parents - what a lovely family to be part of!!

I suppose the obvious thing to say is that he is only 5 and it's still so young to know what his sexuality might be - or even if the girly/pink phase is going to last. And even if the girly stuff lasts, he still might be straight - look at Eddie Izzard!

Our ds1's favourite colour in the world was pink - up until about 6 months ago... (he's 5.3). For his 3rd birthday he had a Barbie party - Barbie cake, plates, cups, pink balloons etc. He had pink socks, vests, pyjamas, duvet set etc.etc.etc....!!

Now he denies it all, saying he was only joking - it's peer pressure, which is sad, but school's definitely making him a lot more boy-ish.

The message you're giving him is fantastic - that whatever he likes in terms of clothes, colours, and then in future whichever gender he might be attracted to is OK. That's the message we give both our ds's - we use examples of any type of combination when we're talking about stuff - although they both correct us and usually insist that there's a Mummy and a Daddy..! But as long as they know it's OK then we're happy.

Good luck and keep posting - I love the sound of your ds - and your dh too!!

spider....want to pair them up - we could have an arranged civil partnership?! what proud MILs we will be!

Spidermama, you sound like a fantastic mother. Many parents would be so embarrassed, but to let your ds be his own free person, regardless of who or what he is really makes me so proud of you (and I don't even know you).

It is very sad but true your ds will get teased at some point about this, but lets hope it won't change who he is and that he will mature into a strong, wonderful boy.

I have read a few posts on your ds flamboyancy and I really hope he doesn't stop on account of embarassment or other kids teasing him. I hope he enjoys his freedom of whoever he becomes. Carry on being the fabulous mummy you are and just go with whatever your lovely little ds feels like.

Spider I think you should let him get on with it a certain amount as he seems to be comfortable himself with it and like anything different the more open he is the more people will eventually not even notice.Thank god he was sent to you and not some bigot who would have kept his feelings down only to explode in a loads of drugs and alcohol later(RObbie?)He sounds lovely

Hi, I'm new on here and just saw this thread. I thought I'd just add a few words as my brother in law was like this as a child. He always wanted to be Wonderwoman and then as a teenager wanted to be a nurse (when he thought they were all women!) He got teased a little, but not mercilessly, and when he went to Uni was often to be found wearing skirts and was never out without his eyeliner and nail polish. He's now 32 and a successful solicitor. He is a confident, effeminate, kind and caring chap, very very "British", who I believe has a tendency to wear his wife's pants to work underneath his 3 piece suit!!

Spidermama I can sort of relate.
I have a ds1 too who is 5, not into princess costumes but has started to say he is a girl or wants to be a girl, he is a very gentle character and out of the blue recently announced I will never marry a girl (usual for 5 yr old boys to dislike girls I know!) but he plans big time on marrying a boy (other boys laugh at this, but he lets it go over him, probably because he doesn't really understand, he said he'd marry me if he could he has some soft dolls that he adores and plays with in his bedroom and says he likes pink (though says he hates it around his friends)
I think it is a real shame that peer pressure/society curbs children's curiousity.
I am not sure what to think sometimes, for example a boy recently told him when two men marry you become 'agayed' and now he wants that as it is good.. I reply he has to wait until he is older before he can marry anyone! (as I don't want to plant negative ideas in him) He is the only lad in his dancing class after school and I admire him for not bottling out because of this.

As someone mentioned earlier, it is a shame that tomboys are accepted but when the other way around people raise eyebrows. I once worked with a 3 yr old who loved dresses, dolls etc, it really annoyed me because his dad was insistant he should not play with such things and turned a blind eye to the fact he could read like an 11yr old!! How sad was that? (btw, yes, we did argue with him that whilst at Nursery he was entitled to free play!!)

hello there.

i'm new to mumsnet, so having a look back at some older topics that catch my eye & read yours, about your ds. I have twin girls, nearly 4 months old, but i'm commenting more because i work with young people (usually 14yrs & up, but there's been some stuff in primary schools) in the area of gender & talking about its complexity.

in primary schools, it's worshops with whole classes about stereotypes and getting them to understand that gender is a spectrum, we can be girly boys etc, and that some people are assigned one gender at birth but choose to become another later.

and with older kids, they all feel they have a complex relationship to gender themselves and want to come & be with other young people. we usually do creative projects with them.

anyway, i wondered how your ds was doing and if things are ok for you!

Catherine00 (Or anyone) -

Do you run these workshops yourself? I'm a Primary teacher and myself and a few of the staff are interested in running a bit of an 'its ok to be different' intervention with the older children. They seem to have quite a firm view of gender and sexual orientation and we're just trying to open their eyes a bit!

I would be very interested in booking someone to come in and talk to the children.

Any advice?

Hi Awsomer,

What part of the country are you? I'm sure I could find some interesting examples for your class through my other site! Lots of gay/Bi/transgendered people, and some are teachers and diversity training type people.

TiggyD that sounds great! I'm in Brighton, and my school is just outside of it. What's your site?

x