The discussion I didn’t want to have

[RIPDotCotton]

Hi- I’m really hoping for support right now (I know a lot of us are in the same boat)
I’ve posted a few times on here and always valued all the opinions offered.
Short story- DD is 18 (19 later in the year) and has fully been presenting as male for 2 years (a ‘tomboy’ since she was young)
We knew she was gender questioning 2 years ago when an incident happened and her Dad came across texts messages. She’s been binding the whole time (obviously got a friend to order it to their house) and the past few months has stopped shaving her legs, upper lip etc so visible dark hair.
We’ve talked about watchful waiting (her Dad and me- she hasn’t spoken about it at all) and have accepted that so far it’s all been temporary (nothing permanent)
Today however, whilst I was driving her somewhere, she blurted out ‘did I remember 2 years ago when she was questioning her gender identity?’
So basically she’s finally talking- even though it’s been the elephant in the room for 2 years and we know- I guess at the same time I’ve been able to put my head in the sand when it hasn’t been talked about:(
She basically said she wants to go to college being ‘out’ which she couldn’t fully explain but I’m guessing means new pronouns and even name (I’m so emotional even though I know these too are temporary)
The main point was she hates her breasts and she did talk about surgery/hormones. I stayed calm and told her many times I adore her and the person she is but I would be scared of her doing anything permanent before her brain is fully ready- eg early 20s.
Of course- she’s all over all the success stories as to how it solves everything and asked me to research the positive stories (!)
So what do I do? I haven’t mentioned it to her Dad as he is literally spending the next few days making the biggest career decision of his life and is super stressed about that. Plus we have family coming to stay for 2 weeks in a couple of weeks so I don’t want to open that box while they’re here.
Legally she can go ahead and do anything and I know that- however we are in the US so no long wait’s necessarily but even if it’s covered by insurance there is still a financial hit that she would need us to cover.
So… helpful advice would be welcome. She did say she wouldn’t do anything without our support but she wants it and I’m terrified that we could permanently damage any relationship with her- the past 2 years she’s withdrawn from the family (she’s all about her friends of which she has masses and they’re all supportive apparently) and we have known she’s stressed but obviously we hoped having a busy full life would keep her away from all this. She has a huge friend group and they’re all straight so she isn’t involved in any LBGTQ activities - actually avoids that tbh - and yes I know that’s sexuality as opposed to gender!)
I’m lost. Up until now it’s been there but she’s never ‘asked’ for support.
I adore her (and I’m aware I’m still using her but we haven’t crossed that bridge yet- although I always try to be gender neutral where I can)
What do I say? To fail to support this next step (that she can legally make) may ruin any relationship I continue to have with her.
I did say (in this brief conversation!) I want her back in therapy, not to ‘change her mind’ but because it’s the right thing to do whatever happens. But, according to her she’s been dealing with this for years and wants to move forward…
Any help, advice, especially from anyone else in this situation would be so welcome right now- I don’t have anyone in real life to discuss this with:(
Thanks in advance.

I will send you a PM

For whatever reason it's not letting me send you a PM. Never mind then. You're welcome to PM me so I can reply if you want.

I think I'd read the positive stories and make the right noises, and do everything I could to demonstrate I was absolutely taking it seriously but my hard line would be that I/we are not going to contribute to or facilitate any permanent changes until you are X years old (24? 25?) because of the persuasive evidence on brain maturation. More supportive gestures and more right noises.

What else can you do?

you are in the US, which is great because there are a lot of good resources available. When I had an employee go through gender transition I found the Ackerman institute in nyc very good. They have been covering this for decades and none of it is new to them.

Legally she can go ahead and do anything and I know that- however we are in the US so no long wait’s necessarily but even if it’s covered by insurance there is still a financial hit that she would need us to cover.

Refuse.

She wants to be who she is, but so are you allowed to be who you are. You don't want her making permanent changes to her body because you don't believe it's the right thing for her to do and you're concerned she'll regret it. So if you pay for her to do exactly that, you're going against who you are. Her feelings don't trump yours. You're equals. You're allowed to be true to yourself.

That's not the same as disapproval. It doesn't mean you won't accept her decision about what to do with her life or any changes she makes to her body. Accepting something isn't the same as liking or agreeing with it though. You can accept something whilst still refusing to be personally involved in making it happen.

Thanks for the advice so far. I agree with everything written - that’s what makes this hard. As she was talking to me yesterday she was shaking-it breaks my heart. And she said she wouldn’t go ahead and do anything without our support but that she was living under immense stress as she is and didn’t want to not be able to be in a room with us or be around us in the future (more so her Dad than me as she doesn’t trust that he’s a true ally I think- despite what he says)
I have a few weeks to get it together because it’s not something I plan on sitting down and discussing with DH right now- he’s mid changing from one stressful job to an even more stressful job plus we have visitors staying for 2 weeks and I don’t want this to implode during their visit.
She did say she wants to be ‘out’ fully at college (3 hours plane ride away) which I assume means new pronouns/name (the name is heartbreaking for me- selfish I know) so maybe we could go along with that and put off anything medical for a period of time - say a year? Or would that be encouraging it more?
I don’t care if she’s gay- I welcome her finding love with whoever- but the dating life for a trans man would be difficult in the extreme. I love her and want her to be happy and successful.
The other main worry is living in the US as we do right now- parts of it are so anti LGBTQ and as for trans issues- it’s horrifying how backwards some areas are becoming. That doesn’t apply so much to where we live right now but as she gets older and moves around- I fear for her safety immensely- it’s terrifying:(

I agree with what you’re saying- but how would you deal with pronoun/name changes? Support that but nothing permanent or medical? I’m well aware she could go to any doctor and get testosterone very easily now she is an adult:(

I was trying to reply directly to irinoncoffeeandhighheels- sorry not sure how to tag you!

I would try and have an open mind about the situation, start the ball rolling with some appointments to talk to professionals about the process/cost. That way she feels as though she's getting somewhere and being really listened to and you can learn more about what it all entails. Once you know all the details you can then sit down with her and say 'ok we are willing to help financially but only once you get to x age and once you've attended so many therapy sessions to make sure this is what you want'
It's easy for me to say as I'm not in this situation but I couldn't risk losing a relationship with my child, she's clearly stressed and needs the love and support of her parents if she's shaking while talking to you

What a very difficult time for you both. It's lovely and incredibly touching that you are close enough to each other to finally have this conversation.
My thoughts as a parent are that she needs your unconditional love and support. That you can give her. You don't have to entirely like her choices but they are hers to make.
I would worry about the potential hostility she will meet but it may not happen. They are obviously able to have and keep friends.
I think 18/19 is still very young to be making choices around something like elective surgery to remove breasts and whilst there are no doubt some people who are happy in those choices, I wouldn't want to cheerlead it either. The irreversible and potentially damaging consequences are the hardest to accept.
Maybe she needs to go away from home and experience life outside of the bubble of her supportive friends and family and experience life as she aspires to live and continue to live and learn and make mature choices.
Have this conversation again maybe in a years time after she has lived away from home for a while? If her feelings are unchanged by the time she's in her 20's and has lived fully in the way she wants to, then I think you need to accept this is her path in life.

I'm UK, not US, but have personal experience of this both as a parent and also as a person myself.

There's a lot I could say to you but it won't necessarily help more change anything.

So I have one idea which may help you both and might even prove to be a bonding exercise.

A name is a name, but I still felt sad that the gender neutral name I saddled my child with was still being discarded.

He's chosen his first name. But he will also now carry down the middle name which has gone to firstborn sons on his dad's side for generations, and his second middle name will be the boys name which originally inspired my choice of his first name at birth.

I've spoken to parents who have bonded more with their trans child by discussing with them what you would have named them if they had been born a different sex, or what their favourite gender neutral names are - it costs nothing to discuss it and it includes you.

If some years down the line your child changed their mind about transitioning, about the name change, it can be changed back. Name changes aren't a physical change.

I hope this helps. You may not agree with it but I consider it a sound piece of advice and it's important to be able to find things to maintain bonds or help create new ones. Otherwise you just end up distanced or estranged.

Gosh, that's hard. I don't have much experience of this first hand.

I'm pretty GC in theory, but obviously it is very different when your child.

I guess if it were me I would try to be as supportive as possible on the identity front, whilst being cautious on the medical one. I don't mean 100% affirmation as the opposite sex, but more like

• I respect where you are right now on identity and I want to support you to feel comfortable

• I am open to the idea that transition may solve some people's gender dysphoria or identity. I am open to hearing more about what you feel the advantages would be and to understanding what you feel is the best case scenario right now.

• my concern is a medical one, primarily. I would like you, in return, to be open to hearing about some of the medical disadvantages of taking hormones and other things, so that you can understand what some of the downsides might be. This is really important, as I understand that those people who are unhappy after transition (who may well be a minority) feel that they didn't understand some of these things when they made the decisions. Some of the downsides are ones that might arise long into the future (like bone density) - you are choosing for a future you as well as a current you. Let's make sure we get this right.

• It might be that counselling should be part of the picture again, but let's do some fact finding first. (Has your daughter discussed her sexuality with anyone in counselling? Understood what she will be looking for in a partner as a trans man?)

I actually think that the "affirmation" is likely to be less powerful if at the same time you are talking in realities of what can be achieved medically. Ultimately, I wouldn't care if my daughter adopted a male name and clothes etc if it were guaranteed she wouldn't go further - it's the fact that progression can then become inevitable that needs caution.

Does she have any neurodivergence?

I would go with her request to watch videos where it has worked out for the trans person. If she would agree to it then I would ask her to watch with you 3 or 4 videos where it has worked out and 3 or 4 videos where it hasn't worked out - so you both have a better understanding of the impact. If she has particular vids she'd like to share with you then go with that and I'm sure you could get some suggestions from people on here of detransitioners who are able to really explain what they went through and the impact it has had and will have in the future.

I would also consider some discussions around strong 'differently feminine' women and that women don't have to follow gender stereotypes. I love Alien with Sigourney Weaver for that - could be a good watch together if she's up for it. Women don't have to shave their legs or have long hair or be feminine in gender stereotypically ways.

I would discuss with her what name she would like to be called if she did change it, you don't have to commit one way or another but talking it through with her tells her you are taking it seriously - this isn't something she has come up with overnight so I think it's only fair. It also helps you get an idea of what might be coming if she does change her name for college. You want to keep the dialogue open as much as possible IMO.

I would go along the lines of - I'm listening to you and taking you seriously but we need to take this slowly and really look into every aspect before we consider anything permanent or lasting.

she’s all over all the success stories as to how it solves everything

This is fine but be sure all these success stories are not just over the internet. You have no idea who wrote them & what their intentions are. Same for detransitors. Decisions like surgery cannot be based on hearsay & rumour alone (which is what much of the internet is) they need to be backed up with concrete evidence.

My DD went to sixth form and name changed etc… but agreed not to at home due to younger siblings ( said we’d see how it went). Lasted a year! Hated being treated as a boy, school were very supportive with the change of heart, as we’re all her friends.
Sending support.
Love them no matter what, that’s the most important

No she doesn’t, although we suspect she may have ADHD and she was planning on going to talk to a doctor about it before college. She does have a history of hyper fixation on things in life. This has been brewing from the age of 15 (hats and hoods hiding her long hair) and cutting her hair at almost 17 and dressing completely male since then)

I think this is good advice. I would reluctantly agree to a new name if it made her happy. I taught a student who had bound her breast initially, had very short haircut and was looking into testosterone gel and later having a double mastectomy. She was in a relationship with a girl too. She left Sixth form to go to Uni. I saw her last year which was the first time in five years. She had a baby and her hair was longer. I didn't even recognise her. She came up to me and said hello Miss. I looked at her and couldn't put a name to her. I usually recognise all my previous students. She told me who she was and that she'd had a baby. I must have looked surprised because she laughed and told me she had sorted out who she was and was living with her partner. At this point a man came and joined her and I realised he was her partner. This girl had been absolutely adamant she wanted to be a trans man. As I turned to leave I must have still looked surprised because she said I just fell in love, Miss. Because of this I would delay any help with testosterone or surgery until 25 but agree to name change and male pronouns. If your DD does it without you that is her choice but I'd not be supplying the money to allow her do it. She may yet change her mind.

I'm probably too far away from the necessary middle ground as mine are too young for this at the moment - but I'd really be trying to give her as many examples / discussions / films / books / role models as possible of non confirming women and trying to steer the general conversation into why she needs to 'live as a man' rather than just living as a gender non conforming woman.

https://gendercriticalresources.com/Support/

Tbh as she is 18 I think I'd probably support use of different pronouns and name, but reiterate that permanent changes should be made later on - find proper research that backs up your point of view. This is for a lifetime, why hurry? I really feel for you, this must be so difficult to navigate.

I am going to wirte this, but I am also going to ask people very kindly not to comment negatively, as this is very hard to talk about in a public place.

My dd is transgender. I am GC and think the whole thing is rubbish.

dd is now 18 and off to uni. She is a deep thinker, we usually hear about stuff after she has made a choice.
She told us at 12 that she was gay (fine)
At 13 that she was nonbinary
At 15 that she wanted to name change and started to call herself by new name everywhere except home.
On her 16th birthday she changed her name by deed poll to new name and pronouns (they/them)
At 16/17 she then said actually that she was trans not non-binary and then using the money from her saturday job, at 17 she signed up to a private GP and was prescribed testosterone. She has been on it now for nearly a year and has changed physically, has a beard and presents as male.

At every step we have discussed and challenged. We talked about all the medical side effects and down sides of medically transitioning and we refused to help or pay for any of it.

backtracking a bit, when she wanted to name change it broke my heart. I had a long talk to her about why we chose her names, their meaning for us and why they mattered. We also talked about how names are links to your family (her middle name is a family name, and her first name came from my husbands language) and so on.
She came back to us with her new name. She took her middle name and altered it slightly to make it gender neutral. (think Charlotte to Charlie) She asked us to help her find a gender neutral middle name from her dad's language.

We have always let her wear what she wants which was trousers and short hair since she was about 10.

But we could not stop her from transitioning, and in particular taking testosterone. We asked her to wait until she was 21 +. She said if she did she wouldn't still be here when she was 21. There was no other evidence that she felt suicidal, but I believe her.

There is a HUGE amount of grieving. I am having counselling to work through some of that.
But at the point that she name changed, aged 16, I knew I had a choice. Love her as she is, even though I disagree with her. Accept her unconditionally and let her know that home and us will always be a safe place.
Or lose her.
I chose love. It is extremely hard. Especially as I have had to advocate for her with wider family. Let grandparents know that she will be turning up with a beard, listen to my mum sounding off about it etc.

But I needed to stand up for her.
At some point I wrote her a letter. Basically saying I don't agree but you are my beloved child and I will always love you. You are always welcome here. You friends are always welcome here.
I think we have a good relationship. Her friends do come and know they are welcome and safe here.

I try to never use female pronouns round her. I usually use no pronouns or they/them. I have recently realised that I need to use male pronouns for her because her uni friends will only know her as he.
I cannot and will not call her my son or say that dd2 has 2 brothers, not a brother and a sister. But instead I use children/child and sibling. They are all ok with that.

I have had to realise that she is her own person. I did things that my mum didn't agree with as a young person. My mum just continued to support me and love me.
She is 18. It is time to step back.
And actaully realise what a lovely young person she is, and that some of that is down to the resilience she has shown negotiating this herself. And some is down to the home she has grown up in.

Mumsnet will tell you to be militantly GC.
I had to stop reading the mn boards around gender a while ago. Any mention of having a dd who was trans got a lot of nasty comments and backlash about how awful we were to even consider allowing them to do it.
I have no idea what the future will hold. I hope and pray that she will step away, but I suspect she will medically transition.
And my goal is to still be her mum. Because I am the only one who can do that.

@steppemum thank you so much for sharing this here. Choose love - this is such a powerful mantra for life. Your children are so lucky to have you.

@steppemum that's a fucking epic post and you are an awesome mum . My heart goes out to you and the struggle this must be every day.

Steppemum- thank you so much for this reply. No hate here.
At no point will I step away from her or stop loving her. I am just genuinely heartbroken and panicking about how to navigate this. I have to decide though because whilst she would be able to access hormones quite easily I think, any surgery would require us to pay the deductibles (basically the insurance excess) which would run into thousands of $$)
And she did say she wouldn’t do it without our support- so her mental health is literally in our hands:((
Thank you for replying- you are a wonderful Mum.