BigBadMummy or anyone with lettings knowledge - need advice please

[sb6699]

For anyone reading who hasnt my other posts, a short summary is that we are moving out of our rented house for a variety of reasons:

• the place is in a bad state of repair generally.

• took 6 weeks to have leaky extension plastic roof repaired when there was water running through the electrics. Ended up someone who knew the builder the LL uses, phoned him for us and explained how dangerous it was. Turned out nobody from either LL or LA had even contacted him.

• took 7 weeks to have blocked drain fixed even though we had rotting kitchen waste all over the garden. LA always seemed to be out of the office and wouldnt return our calls. LL eventually turns up with plumber and gives me attitude because a section of the hedge needed cut. The rest of the hedge was fine I just hadnt done that bit because that was where the waste was pooling.

• LA admitted to us she had been "asking around" about us, such as where the children went to school and knew where my car was parked even though its not on a public road so now feel we are being spied on in our own home.

Had a phone call from another LA yesterday (turns out the one we have been dealing with are managing agents and they are letting agent). They want to do an inventory before we move out.

Problem is that they are saying one was done when we moved in. We have never seen it and certainly never signed anything and I am a bit worried that they will try to pass the blame for the cracked windows (caused by the rotton frames), wallpaper peeling off in certain places (there are 2 layers of textured wallpaper so the edges dont stick down properly and we have to go round every so often to superglue it). There are other things wrong too.

They are trying to blame us for the situation saying that we should have know we should have had an inventory and contacted them. Obviously now it has been brought up ,I realise I should have noticed but we had so much going on at the time that I didnt.

I have argued that if they didnt have a signed one given back to them, they should have realised something had gone amiss and contacted us to chase it up.

We have asked that the original person who did the inventory does this one, so they will know what condition it was in previously and can see the work we have done (repainted the whole house, replaced torn lino in the kitchen, replaced broken curtain poles, etc).

Obviously we are taking their word for it that it is the same person, and given their attitude/previous history I'm not sure I can trust them not to influence the inventory company.

Sorry for the essay, but would appreciate any advice.

Hi,

I run a letting agency and I'm so sorry for all the hassle you have had.

Regarding the inventory, if you haven't signed anything off it will be hard for the LA to prove the original condition of the property. As the professionals in this relationship they should have looked after you, not the other way around. They are probably embarrassed that the situation has happened and are trying to pass the buck.

If you have got copies of correspondence or details of the times of phone calls regarding the poor state of the property, fantastic as this shows that you are a responsible tenant who is trying to look after the property.

I'm sure that you will have photographs of the house, from birthdays, Christmas etc which will show that you have looked after the house.

If you have receipts for the lino, paint etc again, fantastic as it shows you have looked after the property.

Also ask the agent to confirm where the deposit is held because you can find out now what to do if they try and make any deductions and also how you can challenge them.

Have there been any inspections of the house whilst you have been tenants as most good agents will inspect mid tenancy.

For furture reference if a LA doesn't give you an inventory, draw up your own and post a copy to them recorded delivery.

Let me know how this one goes.

Thanks Lilyan, feel a bit better now.

We hadnt complained about the state of the property in general as we were told when we moved in that the windows were going to be replaced, the house would be painted, etc. It just never happened and I assumed that as our LL owns so many properties it was just a case of waiting our turn. I also didnt want to seem a pain

I ended up just trying to do what I could myself because the place was so grim I just couldnt live with it any longer.

They have never inspected the property since we moved in.

Have spoken to the LA again today (surprisingly they were very nice) and they said they were shocked at the service we had received from the managing agent. She also said she knows the properties our LL owns are not in "pristine" condition.

Apparently she has a copy of the inventory and is going to send it to me so I suppose I will just have to wait and see what is on it and hope for the best.

They sent us a letter which I received today though saying they wanted the place professionally cleaned, etc. When I moved in the place was filthy and full of dead flies (literally hundreds of them) so I think its a bit cheeky but will have it done to save myself any more hassle.

I just really hope I dont lose my deposit over this.

Stand firm and do a good job with the cleaning. Then they should have no reason to deduct from your deposit and if they do complain, very loudly.

I definately going to get the professionals in to do the cleaning (the last company I used do alot of work for LA's so they know what they are looking for), also getting the carpets done and chimney swept.

Its more the windows and the extension I am worried about. Because it took so long for them to stop the leaky roof, there is damage around the top of the plaster work so I didnt paint in there and you can still see the streaky bits down the walls. I suppose they will know about the leak as they had it fixed so I that will work in my favour.

Fingers crossed the inventory mentions the windows. I think you can tell that the movement has caused the cracks (there are 3 in various panes around the house) as they start right at the edge of the pane. The frames are really rotton and alot of the windows are ill-fitting as well.

Expecting to get the inventory tomorrow - will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again - was feeling very wobbly when I first posted.

As for an inventory, surely they have to have a copy you signed, in order to "prove" their claim that this was the state of the house when you moved in. If they haven't got it, surely that means , legally, that either they were lying about the inventory (and you never signed one), their record-keeping is crap (and so how do they know), or there is an inventory and it doesn't look good for them.

The bastards do sound like they are trying to use you to cover their big, lazy arses. I hope you're too small for the job!

They have a copy of the inventory that was apparently done, but not one signed by us.

If anything does look out of place when I see it, dont worry they will hear me!

£1600 is too much money for us to lose.

If they are claiming you signed the inventory, they should have the signed copy. If you haven't signed it, they can't prove you saw it and agreed to it. It's proof they really need to produce, or else frauds would go around flashing unsigned "documents" to get away with murder!

Sorry, posted before adding that it was their responsibility to get something signed and to keep that something safe. Otherwise, how are they supposed to prove anything?

Okay, got the inventory this morning.

Its definately not a document that I have seen before.

It does show the property in a poor light so that has eased my mind a tad.

It says on it that it was carried out the day before we moved in BUT says that the bathroom window was flaking and rotten but it was actually brand new when we got there.

Also says that one of the rooms was yellow - it was in fact beige and I know that the lady next door gave the previous tennant the paint to do it and she moved out about a month before so I know these things werent done on the day iykwim.

I also know that the bathroom window was done and the bedroom was beige when I viewed it! I actually mentioned the stain in the bath to the lady from the Agent who was showing me around. I dont know her name and its probably a long shot whether she would remember.

It doesnt mention the big yellow stain in the bath, and although it mentions a couple of cracks in the windows it misses one. It doesnt mention the broken curtain poles either (but I suppose that is a non-issue because we have replaced them).

The main problem is that there is a section on the bottom that says if we havent responded within 7 days, that they take it that the inventory is satisfactory.

I am really worried that I am going to be billed for a new window and bath - that would be my deposit just about gone.

Does that mean it is my word against theirs that we didnt receive it and that will say that they didnt chase it up because of this clause?

What a bunch of shysters! You are in no way bound by that inventory as you never signed it. Take no notice of their threats. How long have you lived there? This is relevant because in the last couple of years it has become a legal obligation for the deposit to be held by a third party who wll deal with any disputes.

The things you are describing are wear and tear to the fabric of the building, not that you haven't looked after the place. I hate landlords like this as the relationship doesn't have to be like this and it gives the rest of us landlords a bad name.

I have lived here for 2 years.

Funnily enough I also got a letter from the managing agents this morning asking me to cut a section of the hedge.

The rest of the hedges have all been done recently - the section they are referring to is in my neighbours garden so although I have cut them back, I havent cut them down iykwim.

Have now got the feeling they are being deliberately difficult because I have been complaining

I just really want to be out of here now

The section at the bottom of the inventory suggests they were supposed to post you a copy.

Should this go to court the judge would be faced with the agents saying they posted you a copy but almost certainly unable to provide any proof that they actually did so and unable to prove that you received it. Against that, you would be saying that you had never received the inventory. It would be a civil case so the judge would decide on the balance of probabilities. With that evidence, I would generally expect the judge to conclude that the agents probably didn't send you a copy of the inventory. Even if they did have proof of posting there is a good chance the judge would conclude you hadn't received it. That's why decent managing agents ask you to acknowledge receipt of the inventory in writing and keep chasing you until you have done so.

If you moved in after 6th April 2007, the landlord was legally obliged to place your deposit in a stand-alone scheme which has a dispute resolution service. Did they do this?

www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/DG_066383
www.rla.org.uk/landlord/tenancy%5Fdeposits/?gclid=CIXfjK6SyKACFRGX2AodC2i-ew
england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/tenancy_deposits

Thanks for the link QoW, I think that may come in handy.

prh47bridge - that was my point to the LA, surely it would be standard practice for them to chase up a document that is so important.

I know in my previous profession, I had to have certain documents signed to meet regulations - if I didnt have them, I would write, phone, everything to make sure I eventually got it.

Am actually thinking this document was written up moons before I moved in (my LL has been renting out properties through them for eons and they always use the same inventory company apparently) and somebody has just changed the date as they realise they have made a bogie and just dont want to admit it.

I mentioned to the LA yesterday about the cracked panes, and this inventory says there are 3 in the living room. There is in fact only one in the living room, the other is in one of the bedrooms and another on the back door - god I am getting suspicious arent I

I dont want to read too much into it atm - maybe I am worrying over nothing but am definately going to phone the LA again on Monday and point out the discrepancies.

Thanks again for all your comments.

This inventory is taking the piss. So many documentable inaccuracies that I can't believe it can be taken seriously. But, in the end, this doesn't matter, as if they haven't got any proof that it was the "original" and that it was one you signed, it's rubbish.

If courts have to decide on the balance of probabilities, as prh47bridge said, they will have to take into account the agents' very strong, and very economic, interest in faking this.

DH is now going ballistic having seen the inventory last night - apparently we have been charged for it so his plan is that he is actually going to ask for his money back!

He is also pissed off about the hedge thing, as I explained before our house is on the edge of a field and cant be seen from the road so nobody would even be able to see the hedges they are on about unless they were deliberately coming round to snoop.

Have also double checked, and the conifers are definately in my neighbour's garden - not mine.

I'm not too sure what the best plan of action is - accept that the inventory shows the house in poor light, wait and see how we get on with the deposit, and meantime just politely point out the discrepancies.

OR - go in as DH wants to, demanding our money back for a service we dont think has been carried out and make it perfectly clear we will legally challenge any amount they try to take from the deposit.

Obviously my biggest worry is that if we piss anyone off too much they will be deliberately difficult.

I still plan to get the place cleaned, carpets done, etc, regardless just so that they realise we arent trying to shirk our own responsibilities towards the lease.

Go, DH!

If they contest it, they are going to have to explain in public what complete arse-cheeks they have been, and then they will have to blush all over those arse-cheeks with shame.

Ooohhh, you sound like a scarey lady - wanna phone for me

DH is due back from work early today, not sure whether him shouting expletives down the phone will help though, so trying to pluck up the courage to phone myself.

Yes, I am a bit scared tbh. I really dont like confrontation. I dont seem to be able to come up with the right responses until after I have thought things through and end up letting folk talk me round even when I know I am right.

And what if I have made a mistake - maybe there is a simple explanation for the discrepancies.

God, I am such a wuss these days.

Whereabouts are you, sb6699? Don't give more than the city, as your privacy is important, but it could also give an indication of how hard up these idiots are, as certain cities are known to have had bad falls.... They could be looking to make it back from you.

The offer to phone is tempting (), but does not leave a paper trail, which is what everyone agrees you need, so I am not sure phoning is the best thing. That takes the pressure off a bit, so you can plan the letter with a bit more peace of mind. How about starting with that?

I'm in Essex. I dont think money for the LL is a problem - all of their houses are owned outright.

They do have a reputation for being tight-arsed though when it comes to keeping them to a reasonable standard. They dont seem to do any maintenance until years after any problems become apparent which could have had serious repurcussions recently.

I dont want to say what happened because it could identify the LL but lets just say a tenant had been complaining about something for a while and wanted it checked out. LL did nothing and it resulted in serious damage which could have injured/killed somebody.

I am going to phone about the hedge thing - I think that will be easy enough to sort out and is just an annoyance that I could do without.

Writing a letter about the inventory is probably better as its a more important issue and think I will be able to put things down better on paper.

"LL did nothing and it resulted in serious damage which could have injured/killed somebody."

Ohhh, what a negligent bastard.

Good luck with the letter, and feel free to post bits on here.

I'm pretty sure that unless the inventory is signed by you, it is completely useless.

They have no means to blame any problems with the property on you as they cannot legally prove what the house was like when you moved in.

Therefore, thay cannot deduct anything from your deposit.

bump. Good luck sb6699

Thanks again peeps.

Have spoken to managing agent and told him the hedges in question belong to my neighbour. Also pointed out that my hedges are all in pristine condition and that if anything needs cut back when we move (the bits that overhang the boundary) we will ensure they are done.

He seems happy enough and is going to advise the LL accordingly.

Half way through composing my letter to letting agent about the inventory (hoping to finish today in between packing/housework/parents evening).

I have left it very factual (not accusing or emotional) just pointing out the discrepancies (the room being noted as yellow, etc despite the fact it was already beige when we moved, etc), have rectified where the cracks are in the window pains, etc.

Also have pointed out the work we have done (painting, new kitchen floor, new curtain poles).

Have made them aware that we are in the process of getting quotes for cleaning, carpet cleaning, and chimney sweeping, to ensure the property is left in a clean and tidy condition when we leave.

Anything else I should include?

On the plus side our new LA, told us yesterday that the existing tenants in our new house are moving out sooner than planned so we may get keys a few days earlier.

Our new LL is on holiday atm and wants a few days in between to do some remedial work but all going well might be able to move on 4th rather than the 8th.

Fingers crossed