DH being charged with theft - what is the likely outcome?

[appledumpling]

DH is 99% likely to be charged with theft by his employer. He has sold items that were in a skip but obviously still belonged to the company. There is also a breach of security involved because of the type of company. The financial gain involved is a four-figure sum.

What should he expect to happen in terms of sentencing. Custodial/suspended/community service?

I can't get any answers out of him and am struggling to cope with it all. I need some concrete facts so I can make plans. He will obviously not have a job at the end of it.

Not a vegetable, I clearly mean.

[Rolls eyes at self this time].

No, I'm not a pedant fyi but when somebody is seriously worried I felt it was right to point out the mistake. Good luck apple. Hope you get some good advice.

Crumpette you have msinterpretted the law in relation to ghosh. He has no defence in law in the circs the OP has set out and abandonment is not applicable either.

i had never even heard of it.
wasnt relevant in the case i heard of

apple the appointment he needs to go back for is to answer his bail. The police will have made some more enquiries since he was there last and may have some more questions for him so he needs to check that his solicitor will be there.

Depending on how far the enquiries have got he will be charged, bailed for more enquiries, or told there will be no further action (although from what you have said I think this is unlikely)

I'm afraid all you can do at the moment us hope for the best; it is unlikely that he will go to prison for a first offence and if the court is considering that they will need to put his case off for the Probation Service to prepare a report about him which includes his attitude to the offence, domestic circumstances etc.

From what you say about these items having security implications, I would agree with nancydrewrocks that you should expect your DH to have to go to the Crown Court to be sentenced but that does not mean he will definitely get a custodial sentence.

A summary of abandonment: Property that has been abandoned cannot be stolen. Even if the property had not been abandoned but the defendant believed it had been abandoned he cannot be convicted of theft whether his belief was reasonable or unreasonable.

It would be a matter for the jury to determine the issue of whether property has been abandoned according to the facts (as they find them) of the case.

Apple, I am a mag so hope I can help a bit.... there are some inaccuracies in the advice here but generally speaking, Droitwichmummy has explained it well.

The next appointment with police will be for charge. The basis of the case against him will be given to his solicitor.He will then be police bailed to appear at his local magistrates court. If the value of goods stolen is less than around £5000 it is probable that magistrates would agree to hear the case. If the value is substantially more, or there are other factors which make the theft more serious then they are likely to refuse to hear the case and he will be committed to Crown Court for trial. If he pleads guilty at the first opportunity he is indeed entitled to a third off his sentence. The Magistrates in that case will either sentence him themselves or decide that the case is beyond their powers (maximum of 12 months custody on two charges of theft) and remit to the CC for sentencing.

The company's attitude to the theft has no influence over the police decision to charge, the prosecution or the sentencing so don't worry about that.

Basically what I am saying is that the value of the goods stolen is the first and biggest influence on whether his case is heard in the magistrates court or not. I have been involved in many similar theft by employee cases where we have been happy to keep it in the magistrates court. However, if the thefts went on over an extended period of time then that would make it more serious, as would the involvement of others.

Abandonment is not a relevant defence here, as his solicitor will explain to him. The fact that some of the items were being disposed of by the company does not mitigate the offence. Furthermore, the sentencing judge or magistrates will NOT take into account his loss of employment when sentencing him as it is not relevant.

I am really sorry, Apple, as a custodial sentence is a real option if this is at the higher end of the scale. If not, then a community order with significant hours of unpaid work is one alternative the court may consider. Please ask anything else if you need to and I will try and help.

There are cases where for example, binmen were sucessfully prosecuted for taking items out of a bin prior to those items being taken to the refuse centre. However, each case turns entirely on its own facts and as I have said, if apple's dh decides to plead not guilty, it will be for a jury to decide. Saying that it is important to take proper advice about the liklihood of conviction in order to consider whether to enter an early guilty plea.

How can the fact that the items were being abandoned not have an impact upon mitigation? Is there case law on this? I would have thought that there is a world of difference between, for example, taking money from a till and taking something from the waste paper basket you believe has been thrown away and that any tribunal who accepts this to be the basis of plea/conviction would have to take this into consideration.

Yes, but there's also a difference between taking something from a waste paper basket and taking (IT equipment?) from a container (OP has said was not a "skip" per se)knowing only that the firm intended to dispose of it (not how), and knowing that there were potential information security issues.

Also, if the Op's H was confident that what he was doing was not dishonest, wouldnt he have asked his employer if he could have the stuff?

Not trying to make it sound worse than it is, but I think you have to be realistic in thinking "abandonment" is probably not going to wash, especially if said container was still inside the premises and not sitting in the corner of the carpark in the rain.

I think my point is that even the OP doesn't know the full facts. Until her DH sits down with a solicitor and tells him the full facts, every detail, nobody should be saying whether there is a defence or not.

During my training I sat and watched a jury trial on this exact point. All I have said, simply, is that this should be considered. Not that it is a defence, or that it will be sucessful.

I am a lawyer, although not an expert in crime. I do have enough knowledge however to know that it is in no way appropriate to discount anything at this stage. somebody close to me does jury trials every single day of the week. Some things which look like there is no defence go in front of a jury, ordinary men and women, who then decide having determined the facts.

That is all I want to say. seeing people who have no legal training or knowledge of how juries work including mags) telling the OP, without knowing ALL the facts that a particular defence isn't applicable doesn't sit right with me. I also think some of the advice re mitigation has been plainly wrong.

No critisism of anybody who is trying to help. That's what's great about MN but I don't feel comfortable reading it.

And anybody who thinks I've been giving OP false hope etc, read my posts please.

I have no intention of telling the OP anything regarding a potential defence: it would be wrong to do so. That is what her DH's solicitor is for. However, items in a skip or company bin or similar receptacle, large or small, remain the property of the company until disposed off in the manner intended by the owner. There is substantial case law but my books are not in front of me. Items in a landfill site belong to the owner of the landfill site. People can, and are, successfully prosecuted for thefts from both landfill and tips.

The advice that abandonment may be a defence to the charge of theft from a skip is (on the basis of the information given by the OP) not correct. Cissy, your post before last asks how can abandonment not have an impact on mitigation? If by abandonment you mean the company's intention to discard the items, then the answer is, yes, it could have an impact on mitigating the offence, but the offence would still have been committed.

Whether solicitor, magistrate or simply interested poster, the advice on plea should be left to those advising the individual in RL. The OP asked for information so that she could put what has happened in context and I hope we have managed to do that.

Incidentally, not only do magistrates undergo considerable legal training on a regular basis, many of us have been solicitors in a previous life. The fact that we volunteer to perform the function that we do does not diminish our role as members of the judiciary, with the understanding and professionalism that the role requires.

lol@ competitive legal knowledging on this thread

i dont think mags can give legal advice las time i looked
just an idea of roughly what they have experienced

If your DH doesn't have a solicitor then he needs to find one and quickly, regardless of whether he intends to plead guilty or not. The entry point for a breach of trust offence (especially as you say the value is in the £1000s) is a custodial sentence. It is aggravated by the fact that your DH sold the property on rather than simply taking something he didnt have for his own use - particulary as there are security implications surrounding the disposal of the items he has taken.
He hasnt been charged yet - is there any scope for trying to offer to repay the money and resign? I know the final decision will rest with the CPS but it may affect the public interest test and sway the balance depending on the strength of the evidence. I am so sorry - this must be horrendous for you.

SuSylvester, the legal profession is almost entirely concerned with competitive legal knowledge .

The whole system is adversarial so hardly a surprise people on this thread have different approaches. It is not a scientific exercise.

I was worried that, because of some posters telling the OP that her DH has no defence, he may inadvertantly omit to tell his solicitor factors that may prove to be important.

Salvolitile, I think you should check with the Magistrates Association whether you should be giving out legal advice on an internet forum. I think what you did went beyond what SS suggested was acceptable.

I think if you bother to look that I have specifically referred in each post to experience over advice. I suggest that you consider the Law Society's Guidance for practising solicitors on giving advice. Or perhaps you are not practising?

I have no legal knowledge whatsoever but am just astonished at how severely property-related offences are punished, from what I'm reading here, compared to other offences of, say, violence against people. [shakes head at mixed up society emoticon]

Apple, no advice I'm afraid but wishing you lots of strength and courage.

I haven't given any advice whatsoever unlike you salvolatile because it is bloody stupid to do so without knowing all the facts.

I wasn't the one who came in the 'step aside ladies, I'll deal with this' attitude

Sorry Op but i think that your Dh needs to get some real legal advice based on the full facts of his case, rather than those of people who are basing their opinions on cases that sound similar.

You also need to sit him down and force him to tell you the full facts of what has happened and what is going on. he has betrayed your trust in this and placed your family in real jeopardy. he has no right to with withhold this information from you.

You are clearly worried and the more you know the more confident you will feel about how you can cope.
i think it's timw to get angry and demand answers.

Right, time to resurrect this thread. Thank you for all the input and, regardless of the accuracy of some of it, I appreciate the intentions behind it.

So, an update:
DH resigned this morning with immediate effect so from the work POV nothing will be on his record and no disciplinary hearing will take place.

We don't know what is happening about the charge. He has a solicitor and has been advised that there will be enough evidence to charge but it is not a given that the CPS will decide to charge.

It had been going on for 2 years. Some of the items were from a skip. Some of the items were on a shelf at work and were not in circulation but had not been written off. These were the items with security implications. They and their parts should be trackable at all times and they are now somewhere they should not be. The value of the items is probably £2000-3000, I still don't exactly know.

I was taken ill and ended up in hospital shortly after starting this thread. Am home now and getting better but obviously I'm not well enough to dash out and find a job. DH doesn't seem to realise how hard it is likely going to be for him to find another job. We have no income as of this morning. Joy. Not.

Blimey again - I'm really sorry. No one deserves this amount of shit. I hope you recover well - in the meantime are you checking out all your benefit entitlements?

Apple - can't offer any help but sorry you are having duch a stressful time.

So sorry this is happening, but it's been going on for 2 years and he hasn't been charged?

Hope you are able to get some rest and not worry too much...

I bet you could just kill him. I know I would want to.

Well, part of me wants to kill him, part of me just wants to get it sorted out and rebuild but it's difficult. If it was just me and him it would be different but what annoys me beyond words is the fact that he's compromised our children.

We'll sort something out - don't know what just now but we'll come up with something.

Good luck. You must feel like the rug has been pulled completely from under you and everything you knew.