UPDATE Private landlords advertising properties to let 'no children'

[darcymum]

Anyone remember my petition to make it illegal for private landlords to refuse to accept families in suitable accommodation? I thought I would give you an update on some of the things I have been doing.

I have contacted Shelter and they are having their campaign team look into it.

I have contacted the Equality and Human Right Commission, they are looking into it.

I have been trying to find out what the situation is in other countries and have yet to find anywhere (apart from the UK) that discrimination against children and families in this way is legal.

Here is the petition if you want to sign it.

petitions.number10.gov.uk/Childlands/

Somebody has set up a group on Facebook

www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=187567633950

I don't know about the law in Belgium but I have Never seen an ad specifying no children. No pets yes...

We rent here and as I guess it is much more common it is very well regulated. All leases must be registered with a central agency. The starndard contract is what is known as a 3-6-9 agreement. Lease is for 9 years. If you leave within the first 3 years you pay a penalty of. 1,2 or 3 months rent. The landlord can only ask you to leave if they, or a member of their immediate family wishes to live there. Then I think 6 months notice is required.

You have pre-defined responsibilities with regard to what you vs landlord has to repair / maintain. The cost of decoration is amortised over 9 years. The place must be left as you found it apart from reasonable wear and tear. So if you moved in year 6 and the place needed redecorating you would pay 3/9s of the cost of that. Or do it yourself.

An independant surveyor comes to do entrance and exit surveys and a very detailed report is written.

I think it is a great system which the uk could learn a lot from. As you have to be in it for the ling term as a landlord, you won't be trying to just make a quick buck.

Thanks Portofino, I think the UK has a lot to learn from many countries with regard private renting.

I do like the idea of an independent surveyor as well.

What a fantastic system, Port!

expatinscotland

You have been very anti challenging the 'no children' practise, have I persuaded you at all?

Will you sign the petition?

'You have been very anti challenging the 'no children' practise, have I persuaded you at all?

Will you sign the petition? '

No, because although I think you are a fantastic friend, I don't see things changing in the UK because of the culture and attitude towards property for let here, unfortunately.

Oh, and I have to add, that rent increases are linked to price indexation. So the landlord cannot increase the rent according to his own whim either.

I do appreciate that the property market here is different. There are no school catchments areas. You can apply to any school you like. The cost of buying is high. About 17% on top of purchase price so you don't move to make money, only when you need to for logistical reasons.

People favour new builds. So if you inherit granny's house, it is common to rent it out on a long term basis. Doesn't necessarily mean you will spend any money updating first either....But on balance, at least I can live in my house without worrying about being kicked out at any moment.

darcy In answer to your question about MN involvement - have a look at this thread here. MNHQ is actively seeking suggestions for campaigns. It sounds like Policywonk and Onebat are coordinating and organisinng the various suggestions. I think your campaign would definitely be worth highlighting there.

As far as the discussion on whether the UK property system could accommodate such a change, I think that change has to start somewhere, and it is not as big a deal as people might think. It would soon become normal and people would think nothing of it.

Australia has a very similar (i.e. slightly slightly rapacious) 'buy to let' property culture as that in the UK, with many private landlords buying up a portfolio of buy to let properties. Discrimination against children is illegal there and landlords cope just fine. The renting system is also better regulated and the obligations for both tenants and landlords are clearly communicated.

I have looked for some Australia links. It is regulated at State rather than federal level there so I have pulled out Victoria as an example. The links to information are:
Guide document for tenants and landlords. This must be provided at start of tenancy, and clearly states on the first page "A landlord or agent cannot refuse to rent a property to tenants with children. It is discriminatory and therefore against the law to do so."
Renting information home page with links to a range of useful inforamtion ncluding tenancy agreements.

My conclusion is, this is such a basic aspect of non-discrimination, and appears to be regarded as such by most other countries. The UK is out of step with this and as such in breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of Children. Just because it has always been done a certain way here doesn't mean it is the right way, and doesn't mean it can't be changed to make it right.

but if a landlord doesn't want children then even if the ad doesn't explicitly state it, he just won't agree to let to tenants with children, and they are kind of difficult to hide when moving in ...so i'm kind of thinking, what's the point?

Thanks Ponymum you have been a brilliant help. I will contact MNHQ. If I do get kicked off will you be able to contact me through Facebook? You can find my name on the petition and on the facebook group, I didn't start the group but I did start the petition.

Wish me luck.

Questions2008 I dont expect a law banning adverts of the 'no children' type will completely stop the problem (as I am sure some landlords still refuse to let to black people) but it will go a very long way towards it. It might stop couples expecting a baby being evicted though.

darcy I don't do Facebook, but you can email me on see jay are pee sixty at googlemail dot com (convert to letters and numbers, no spaces). I have quite surprised myself with how impassioned I feel about this, the more I have looked into it. I would be happy to continue to help out if that would be useful.

Ok so I have contacted MNHQ hopefully I will still be able to post in future, if not please contact me through Facebook anyone who wants to.

That would be soooo.... good Ponymum. I have had some good support from Shelter on this as well. I can copy you in on their emails in future.

I'm also in Belgium. The house next door to me has been empty since the summer as the landlady appears very picky about who she rents to. She could rent to the UK MoD and get guaranteed rent and a guarantee that the place will be returned in A1 condition, but she didn't want to put in stairgates which the MoD requires if the property is going to a family with young kids.

Whilst I don't discriminate against children in letting my house in the UK, I can see why some landlords would not consider a property suitable for children (I'd have a problem with the marble/stone staircase next door), and presumably, as the house is mine, I can decide to whom I do or don't rent.

So, any news on how the petition got on? I am having a nightmare finding a place in Bristol with three children. Landlords have their pick of tenants and so us (with three children) are told, "Landlord wants to market the property for a couple more days and see if someone else (professional couple I assume) wants it first and if not we'll come back to you." And of course it goes! Anyone else still having this problem? Wondering if it would be legal on our part to omit the fact that we have children? I don't see any legislation requiring us to tell them how many children we have...only over 18s on tenancy agreement.

recognising zombieness - but only lie to a landlord if you are happy to be cheated too.

strange that landlords would do this as it reduces the pool of tenants and so keeps properties emptier for longer, and an empty property costs money.

kids do seem to be allowed to scribble on walls (and don't get me started on bath crayons, who the hell invented those?) but they don't bark all day, scratch up carpets, urinate repeatedly on carpets or chew furniture.

My neighbour let a house out to a family with a young child. Only one child.
He has kicked a fence panel repeatedly and hard it needs replacing
He has kicked and swung on guttering - ditto
inside, drawn on walls, kicked walls, kicked doors, broken a shower screen. This a basic list there is an awful lot of damage. My neighbour is very upset. So am I. I paid for the new guttering and fencing only two years ago and now its damaged already

Where I live, 2 br flats are sometimes advertised as 'no children'- but that's because the LL is using the address as his home address to get his DCs a place in the local outstanding comp...

I am not necessarily proud of this but I was so incensed when a rookie letting agent woman (18 if she was a day) told me this in passing that I dobbed the address to the school concerned!

Just had the same problem (mid negotiation the landlord tells us that he decided not to have children in the house) and so I did some research. this is what I found (the Equality Act 2010):

"What kind of behaviour can be unlawful discrimination?

The Equality Act says the following things can be unlawful discrimination by someone who has the right to sell or let a property, if it's because of who you are:

offering you a property on worse or less favourable terms
refusing to let or sell you a property
treating you badly or less favourably when you want to rent or buy a property
behaving in a way which causes you distress or offends or intimidates you - the Equality Act calls this harassment
punishing you because you complain about discrimination, or help someone else complain - the Equality Act calls this victimisation.

What’s meant by age?

If you want to make a discrimination claim, you need to find out if you’re someone who mustn’t be discriminated against under the Equality Act 2010.

The Equality Act says it’s only unlawful discrimination if you’re treated unfairly because of certain reasons. These reasons are called protected characteristics. Age is one of the protected characteristics under the Equality Act.

Age discrimination is where you’re treated unfairly because of your age or because you’re part of a particular age group.

What’s meant by age group?

Age group means people of the same age or people in a particular age range.

Here are some examples of age groups.

You’re 25 years old. You could belong to one of the following age groups:

25 year olds
under 30s
over 20s
people in their 20’s
young adults.
You’re 78 years old. You could belong to one of the following age groups:

78 year olds
over 70s
pensioners
senior citizens.
Example

You’re 70 and you’ve been refused entry to a gym because of your age. This is unlawful discrimination.

Discrimination because of someone else’s age

It’s unlawful to discriminate against you because of the age of someone you’re with or someone you know. This could be a parent, child, partner or friend.

This is called discrimination by association.

Example

You’ve booked a holiday for you and your mum, who’s in her sixties, to go on an organised walking trip to Wales. When the organisers find out your mum’s age they say you can’t go because your mum is too old to keep up with the rest of the group. This could be unlawful discrimination against you and your mum because of her age."

www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/housing_w/discrimination_housing_e/housing_identrifying_discrimination_e/hp4_what_is_the_unfair_treatment_when_renting_and_buying_.htm

www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/discrimination_e/discrimination_protected_characteristics_e/ge1_age_discrimination.htm

I will definitely sign this

I am very frustrated with this issue. My application have just been refused (after paying admin fees and passed referencing) because I have a toddler. So I was wondering if anyone here had any progress with their complaints or is the petition still alive?

Not sure about this.As a landlord we need rights too.I would never say "no children" but you develop a sixth sense over the years. Children/pets/benefits combination is a definite red light from previous experience.It looks harsh when written down but I'm not willing to take the gamble.

why does the tenant pay all the fees and is still out of pocket if the landlord refuses them? surely the money should always get refunded if the refusal is through no fault of the potential tenant (pass finance and referencing, which is all that really matters.)