Probate woes

[Fairyliz]

I am executor for an elderly relative who was widowed, didn’t have children and has a complicated estate.
The solicitor is getting on my nerves for several reasons, eg she seems bemused that I don’t have a copy of the probate for relatives first wife who died over 50 years ago when I was a child.
However we have a final draft which I don’t really understand but I respect her profession judgement. However she has told me that I need to understand it all as I will have to sign the documents and basically if it’s incorrect it’s my fault!

Now if I knew how to complete all of the paperwork why would I have appointed a solicitor, I could have done it myself and saved thousands of pounds.
Is this correct? Will I be in trouble with HMRC if the figures are wrong?
As you might imagine I am regretting taking this on. My advice to anyone is never be an executor.

The solicitor could have ordered a copy of the will and the grant of probate using the Probate Office's on-line search in about 2 minutes, all that is needed is the name and the rough date of death or the approximate date probate was granted. Of course it would be cheaper to do it yourself. I suspect that solicitors see will/probate and POA's as a nice little earner, that they can get a paralegal to deal with, while charging the full rate for an equity partner.

oh dear you seem to have chosen a duff solicitor....or maybe they were named in the will?. She is right that you need to understand what you will sign but she should be capable of explaining it to you. I was in a similar situation with parts of my late husband's estate. There were parts of the work that I could not have completed but the solicitor explained what he had done sufficiently that I could do my part. Is there any way you could change solicitor?

In my experience probate solicitors seem much more motivated to comply with HMRC than to act in their clients interests. The fear is they will mess up and HMRC will be onto them.

but the clients intersts should not put the client into trouble with HMRC either!

Sorry to hear that the solicitor is not being helpful. If it won't cost extra (or maybe if it will - comes out of the estate?) I'd go in person and make her help you more. With all this estate stuff, I've found you really have to press people and keep asking questions.

When I was executor for DH's estate, the solicitor seemed to think it was all easy-peasy. And, most of it was, especially if, like her, you'd done hundreds. She kind of brushed me off about applying for probate online but when we did it together, it became clear that the online process had changed a little and so she was more helpful.

Yes that’s what I thought too.
I never knew you needed so much information and to be honest how many of us have this information about people who are not our immediate family.

Yes but she is giving me the impression that if they mess up it will be my fault.
Do they not have some kind of professional insurance against errors?

They can only go on the information/documents presented to them. If they screw that up, then its on them and their PI insurance. BUT, they can't declare what they don't know about, hence why they want you, as executor, to put your name to the forms as being responsible as you've been closer to the deceased than the solicitor even if you didn't know them too well, it's still more than a solicitor who may never even have met them!

Presumably, you're a beneficiary of the will, hence why you're executor, so you ultimately benefit, hence the extra work, stress etc. If you're not a beneficiary, you'd have been better to excuse yourself and let someone else be appointed to have the stress and work of it all.

Sounds like you and her need a clear sit down conversation. When dealing with people like solicitors and health professionals, an "impression" is not enough.

well yes, but they should be doing stuff like getting hold of the previous will and probate and being clear in their conversations, not "giving impressions"

I think it's fair enough that they ask the executor first for previous will/probate before spending time and money obtaining official copies. I'd imagine a client would be pretty unhappy upon seeing extras on the bill to get them if they hadn't asked and the client did in fact have the original documents!

It costs £1.50 to get an electronic copy, so it's not going to break the bank. The solicitor would be charging more than that for ringing to ask if you had it.

this

If she messes up I world imagine it would be on her, as long as you haven’t deceived her or HMRC about the size of the estate. She’s the legal professional here. On the face of it, her behaviour does seem rather odd and paranoid .

Glad it’s not just me who thinks that. She was astonished that I didn’t know the deceased tax reference number. I didn’t actually know this was a different number to your NI number.
Does everyone else know this stuff, perhaps I’m just a bit thick.

not thick at all. I had never done a "proper" tax return until after my husband died. I worked for the NHS, didn't pay serps so it all just happened automatically. I had to do a posthumous tax return for my late husband and made a complete box of frogs of it. An amazingly kind lady at HMRC redid it for me and sent me back a correct completed form because this was before online tax returns. If you have never needed to know something then why would you know it?

For years I didn’t know all this stuff because I’m a public sector worker and just pay tax at source. But when Dad got dementia I had to take over his tax affairs so had to familiarise myself with it all. But it’s entirely possible not to come across all the trappings of Tax returns etc if you don’t work, or just pay tax via your employer. She should know that.

That would only be if probate was applied for.

i am in a similar situation- I need the will and accounts for a pre deceased spouse.

however the executor of that will was able to empty accounts, transfer shares etc without needing probate. Most banks have a ridiculous level before needing probate to release money- in the tens of thousands.

because none of the accounts held more than the 50k with would have necessitated probate the simply didn’t. As there’s no probate the will remains private and the executor can refuse to share it.

one of the probate issues that needs sorting imo.

I have contacted the various banks/building societies where my relatives held money and have found that some of them are asking for probate if the balance is over £10k. The most you can have is £25k before getting probate so I think they may have tightened up the rules.

The cost has now increased to £16.

Very day it has gone up to £15
But it's cheaper than having the solictor do it if you do it yourself

Regardless of who completes the IHT205 or IHT400, the Executor remains liable for the final tax due plus penalties and interest. If the solicitor has poorly advised you and HMRC come after you, you may have a claim against the solicitor for negligence. As to the value that can be released pre probate, it varies from institute to institute but is usually for banks around £30-50k. Don't worry about not having a tax ref for the deceased - unless your relative completed a tax return, they won't have a UTR, just a NI no. Sorry for your loss 💐

Yup - this! I was just the Executor for my Dad and I did all the collation of info and just handed it to the solicitor to ensure everything was in Order and submit the application.

The solicitor is faffing around possibly to justify what she's charging. My cousin and myself were executors for an elderly aunt who had never been married and didn't have any children., So I suppose it was a bit more straightforward the your case, but she still had property and savings etc. And the distribution of the estate was a bit complicated. However we did the probate ourselves all online it cost £300 and was back in under 3 weeks. I couldn't believe how easy it was. I don't know how solicitors justify charging thousands.

being an executor is a very onerous task and not one to be done lightly. You have done the right thing to instruct a solicitor given the circumstances of the cleverly relative (many of those commenting say about their parents which is a different scenario).
solicitor warning you of your legal duty as executor as you will be the one held responsible if you knowingly sign documentation you know is wrong. Solicitors are risk adverse but they are also regulated and insured so if it is their cock up you have avenues to go down!
the copy document fee is £16 not £1.50, she’d need the details of the late wives name and date of death, so £16 but worth asking you have it.
it’s a complicated process and you pays what you gets!