What happens to a family farm if both parents die intestate?

[Gagagardener]

I wonder what is likely to happen to a farm formerly owned by a relation who died 18 months ago, probably without a will. (His wife says he made one on a Post Office form, but there certainly wasn't one made by a solicitor.) The widow and their elder son now run the business, but I know she hasn't made a will. The couple had two sons (no daughters); the younger is on good terms with his mother, though not with his brother. The elder is unmarried; the younger is well established in a very different line of business and has a wife and family. If the original farmer and his wife both die intestate, what will happen to the farm when she dies? I think the elder son thinks it will descend to him. The widow won't make a will because she doesn't want not to leave it to the elder, but can't bear either to divide it or not to leave it to the younger either...

It would be split between the sons in equal parts

It will be split equally between the living children and will most likely be a big fucking mess.

The youngest if he wants nothing to do with it COULD agree to a deed of variation and essentially gift his half to his brother.
HOWEVER notionally giving away £2.5m+ vs. actually giving away 2.5m + when you have kids and a family are two different things.
University housing... its all very expensive these days even if you are "doing well for yourself"

If there's no will it passes to the children, in this case split equally between the two sons

Not writing a will is deciding to split it equally.

a post office will form can be a legal will if completed correctly. Are you sure there is no will?

In agricultural areas there are usually lawyers specialising in farm succession, would it be an idea for her to go for an appointment with one?

Does that supercede the intestacy rules? Is the farm element relevant here?

No you’re right it probably doesn’t. I just thought a solicitor who understands the complexities of passing on farm ownership might be helpful . I imagine it’s not the same as leaving a property as it’s a home and a business.

By not making a will she is making the decision to split it equally between the two sons. Which would be the fairest option but for farming communities is seen as a travesty and the non farming sibling would be seen as money grabbing and a destroyer of the family asset if they actually wanted their share.

Usually what happens in this situation in farming is that the non farming sibling gets a cash payout and the farming sibling has to sell some of the land or take out a mortgage to pay out the sibling.

She really needs to speak to a specialist agricultural solicitor to consider her options and decide what is most important to her. The farm legacy or fairness between siblings.

Is there also a farm partnership to unpick as well?

I am unsure about 'partnership'. I keep checking probate in case I am wrong aboutvthexwill, but no sign of it yet.

There is apparently 'no money' to pay for legal advice. They live in cold discomfort on land worth literally millions.

As well as his own farm work - helped by his elderly mother, who acts as fsrm bookkeeper and secretary, and puts on her wellies to round up and move animals - the agricultural son does contracting jobs for farmers who will pay for oil to grease an axle.

I know how the grandfather of the current farmer worked for that land, and how the family was so proud when finally they owned it. It's a tragedy waiting to happen. Or happening already.

Thank you all for taking an interest.
(It wouldn't be 'fair' to split it 50/50, because current farmer's input has built up its value. Without him, it would have had to be sold years ago.)

the sons may already own part of the property. Under the intestacy rules where there is a spouse and children the spouse doesn’t get everything only the first £322k, personal possessions and half the rest. Anything owned jointly as joint tenants would pass to the survivor outside of any Will or intestacy.

What is your interest in this if you are going as far as checking probate?

OP, you don't have to answer but do you have skin in the game?
Who is administering the current distribution of the estate? There is no point considering what would happen when the widow dies until its known how the estate has been distributed following the death of the farmer. ...unless of course, the widow is at imminent risk of death? I am assuming that you are not close with the widow as you indicate that only way you could tell if there was a will is by checking the probate lists.

that's what I wondered too.....

You need to say where this farm is. Spain, UK, or Ireland.

Wherever, just get an a lawyer onto it.

MN has this fantasy you can get a half hour free with a laywer. Never heard of it.

Good luck OP.

Sounds like a train wreck to me.

If it was in joint names then it would all pass to the joint owner on death with minimal legals needed.

So is there a will or not? The other son should be pushing for it either to be located or the intestacy process to be followed.

Intestacy details for England and Wales are here

https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

Majes it easier to follow if I call the farmer who first worked his way up to own this farm Generation 1, or Grandad. Following the death of his son, Generation 2, the son (Generation 3) moved back in with his mother. The farm seems just to carry on.

I have known the family since I was very small. My sister, brothers and I played there as children with the deceased farmer of Generation 2. I stood godmother to one of his boys.

The widow and I are friendly, but she doesn't talk about this. Or own up to her age, but I think she and I are about the same. I have no skin in rhe game. But I am curious as to what will happen. And checking probate is quick and cheap via the Internet.

I'm not going to do anything: not my pot, not my shit. I don't think being godmother carries any clout with a man in his 40s.

So the widow doesn't talk to you about it and i am assuming that the sons don't either? Therefore apart from looking at the probate list, you don't have any facts?

Farm succession can be an absolute horror show.

This happened near here. The mother (whose farm it was, inherited from her family) wanted to leave it to both sons. One son and the father felt otherwise, murdered the other son and then shot themselves, leaving her alive to suffer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/county-cork-father-and-sons-died-in-murder-suicide-coroner-rules

I"ve nothing to add. I care about these people.

care or not, it seems like there is nothing you can do and it seems they have not asked for your help?

Apart from gossiping what is your business here? Whoever is working the farm now has to inherit it. If there are few more houses on the land, the second son can be given a house for free....and employed there....there are so many ways that this could benefit everyone

The only thing you can do is to tell your friend in no uncertain terms that she has to consult a solicitor expert in farming matters, and to take their advice. By not leaving a will, she is going to create a nightmare which will destroy the family.