Court Orders with older children

[timetofight]

My kids are 15 and 13 and I have a court order against me from their paternal grandparents (their son died). My question is can they get more access outside this order if the children agree or are we all held by the terms of the order? They’ve set up an email group with them and are communicating with them without me being privy to it. My kids are currently being showered by expensive gifts by them; money I don’t have as everything I earn is used on daily living. They won’t say no to the grandmother if she asks for anything as she is extremely controlling and always gets what she wants. Her own husband and grown children would never say anything to her.

What are my rights here? It seems I am tied to this order but they are not.

Thanks.

It depends on which country you are in, and what exactly the court order states. You need to make an appointment with a solicitor and discuss this with them.

Of course teenagers can see someone more than a court order if they want to. Would you take your own children to court because they aren’t sticking to the schedule?
I think you’re being really controlling here, they’re allowed to chat to their grandparents without you being in the conversation. That’s completely normal.
You talk about the grandmother being controlling but it honestly sounds like you’re wanting to control this just for the sake of it.

Thanks @goz . I’m looking for a legal perspective not a AIBU Comment especially when I am deliberately not saying everything that has happened over 20 years with these people. Maybe don’t make snap judgements?

@HawthornFairy Im in the UK and I have to give them monthly dates for zoom calls and they see them a few times a year.

Courts are supposed to prioritise the child's best interests over the personal wishes of the adults involved. It's such an unusual situation to have the battle between one live parents and the grandparents from the deceased other parent's side that there is very little precedent to go on. The courts will not force an older teenager into unwilling contact visits so at this age if they didn't want to go to grandma's then the courts wouldn't force them to.

If yhe children actively want to spend more time with grandma you would have to show that this is harmful to the children in a way that the children can't perceive. Showering them with gifts might ring alarm bells as part of a campaign with malicious intent but could just be generosity. Do the gifts come with strings attached? Are they wholehearted actual gifts or are they "gifts" that have to be kept at and only used/enjoyed at Grandma's house/only given on condition that they come and stay more?

The children don’t want to spend more time with them. My eldest especially has a girlfriend and I know he is pretty much messaging her the whole time he is with them and he’s been leaving the zoom calls early because he’s going out. My youngest just doesn’t say much. He will not really speak on zoom calls. In the court order they said that if they sent any letters or gifts I wasn’t allowed to get rid of them and we have to keep them indefinitely. The expensive gifts are definitely a means of getting the kids on side to make them feel they owe them. I’ve seen this with the adults they know.

As I said, no one will say no to the grandmother. My kids have said to me if I was there I wouldn’t say anything either so I know they aren’t saying what they feel to them.

Is the court order something I have to follow and not them?

@CactusSwoonedEnding interesting that you say there is hardly any precedent for this situation. That explains a lot.

What do the kids want?
At 13 and 15 they have more say in matters.

For the gifts, you could get each kid a big plastic box as a “grandma crate” and put everything in there. They can use or ignore as they like, but that makes it clear they don’t have to integrate unwanted stuff into their daily life if they don’t want to.

is grandma asking the kids to spend more time with her on calls? What exactly is she doing that breaches the current order ?

How old is the court order?

It’s only a year old and my eldest turns 16 soon but he knows that he will probably have to continue for a while longer because my youngest won’t go on his own.

They already said what they wanted to Cafcass and Cafcass agreed with us but then they put Cafcass ‘on the stand’ and tore her to shreds. I managed to get access halved without a solicitor.

At their ages you can happily start ignoring the court order safe in the knowledge that they will not be able to enforce anything through the court that goes against the children's wishes.
If the children don't want the zoom call or to see the grandparents they simply don't have to do it.
However if they do want to see the grandparents as and when they want to that's also fine.
Basically the court order can now go in the bin from your perspective and adhere solely to what the kids want.

Edited as I see the order was only made a year ago. The 13 year old will absolutely be considered old enough to make their own decisions by the time they reach 14 if not before. I would say that it's up to them now anyway.

When was the Court Order granted, and what was their case against you st the time that made the courts agree to grant it? Were you actively trying to alienate your children from their grandparents? Had the grandparents been the main resident carer for the children for any part of their lives? Usually the courts have no truck with enforcing grandparent contact against the wishes of parents but is there more difference here than just the fact that their dad died?

It is rare for court orders to remain in-force with no variation all the way from when children are very young all the way until they are 18 unless the terms are sufficiently flexible that teenagers don't feel too constrained by them, or unless all people concerned are actually perfectly happy with them and they are just ordering something that actually makes sense. Eg if this was a "normal" court order defining contact with their dad, your responsibility would be just to ensure that they are available for regular phone calls and for weekend visits at whatever frequency, but with no responsibility to force a reluctant teenager to talk or to get into a car they are actively unhappy about.

If your children feel that the terms of the current court order are too onerous and restrictive on them, and if they would be willing to testify that to the court directly, then it is worth applying for the order to be updated to reflect their emerging right to personal autonomy. The older the children are, the more weight will be given to their views if they dislike the current arrangements, so it might be worth sticking with the status quo for another year and making the application then. However your original question was "can they get more access outside this order if the children agree" and that cuts both ways - you also need to relinquish control and facilitate more contact if that's something the children want and they aren't being harmed by it.

My experience is that the family court will just say that if the children are that age then they will take their wishes into consideration. My ex had a court order for example, 50/50 care, his best friend is a barrister. When both children went no contact he didn’t take me back to court despite them only being 14 because his friend knew that any judge would just listen to what the kids had to say and he stood very little chance of forcing them to see him. I know it’s not quite the same but I really think at this point the court order is kind of pointless. I would just work on showing the kids what she’s like (if she’s as bad as you say).

We had a court order that favoured exh. At 12 and 14 the dc went nc with him and moved full time to my home. Never heard a peep from exh..

You say they “aren’t following the court order”, but does the order say they can ONLY speak to the kids at certain times, or does it set times that they are entitled to have a call? Because in the latter scenario I can’t see that by calling at other times as well, they are breaching the order. Your kids are at an age when they probably have their own phones. Do you think they should refuse to take calls from their grandparents because it’s not the allotted time?

Unless the court order specifically bars them from contacting the kids outside of the agreed times then yes, the order is for you to follow not them

you could have the order varied if you can show a significant change in circumstances or that the current order is causing harm, distress, or disruption @timetofight

Especially if you feel they are undermining your parental authority.

Why do you not want your DC to have any contact with their late father’s parents? If they had to take you to court for access and that access was granted, it sounds like the courts believed you were the one in the wrong not facilitating such access.
In my experience, teens tend to lose some degree of contact with their grandparents but this then increases again as they get older.
Are you handing over the gifts that they send?

The grandparents have never been involved in childcare because they live too far. Actually ive stated something incorrectly, it’s been in place since 2018 and it was varied last year. At the recent hearing one of the reasons given was that as we are from different ethnic backgrounds the children needed to have access to their paternal culture.

Unfortunately I won’t be facilitating any extra contact because of what has gone on in the past. I fear for mine and my children’s mental health. They’ve seen enough of their behaviour to know the personalities involved. However I have said to my 15 year old he is free to do as he wishes once the court order ends for him at 16 but that will be up to the paternal family to pay for and facilitate. I will not pay a penny or spend any time driving him there.

Yes I am. They added that because they want to show me in a bad light. The kids even open them on zoom in front of them. Why would I not hand over the presents 🤔

There is a lot here that I haven’t mentioned but there have been successful court orders taken out by me against them.

If only 😩. These court appearances have shown me that if you don’t have a solicitor and present yourself you are no match for huge legal teams.

As I said they are highly unlikely to say no as the grandmother is a very forceful character and they are also very nice children.