What happens in these circs ?: both elderly parents alive ,mum took all dad's money into her name ,now she's died .

[Yellowstonemaddnesa]

So these are not my parents.
Mum and dad had I think mirror wills and mum had son Joe being her power of attorney and all dad's money ie joint money went to mum. Mum has a new will with Joe being executor and possibly all money shared if she goes second ,hopefully if she goes first money goes to dad

His care home is being paid for.

Now mum has died first , does dad's original will come into play and who does his power of attorney.

• as Mum has already died surely Joe and yourself now know the contents of her will - so, did it go to Dad or was it shared?

• Mum's Will won't have affected Dad's Will as they are different people, so his will remains however he had it written most recently. If they had a solicitor draw them up then it would be very basic and standard to include a hierarchy of inheritance (e.g.: Mum inherits it all but if she is already dead at the time of the will being used, then it instead goes to Plan B, the grandchildren/cat's home). This is done in all wills because sadly it isn't that unusual for people to eg: die in a car crash sitting next to their closest loved one, who also dies in the same event. (Similarly making provision for children who might not have be born at the time of making the will but exist at the time of death).

• Power of attorney is a different thing to being the executor of a will - power of attorney is while they are still alive and you need to have filled in the forms for financial or medical POA with their consent whilst still 'in sound mind' and then they can be held and 'activated' once it is the appropriate time. That would also be between your Dad and Joe directly and whatever your Mum did wouldn't affect it, as they are different people. Joe ought to know if he has agreed to be Dad's POA and have some forms somewhere relating to it!

Surely unless the wills stated otherwise the dh will inherit as they are married?

Presumably they gave the money to DW to prevent it going to care fees? it's now going to be spent on DH care home until it runs out, he leaves or dies himself. Any remainder will be divided per his will.

DHs will won't come into effect until his death so just concentrate on dw will as she is the one that has died!

The mums will was made after the dad's dementia diagnosis .
So I don't know if her will with her access to their money and Joe as poa would still give Joe power of that money ?

My thinking would be her will would leave everything back to dad and Joe is now irrelevant as Joe has no poa over dad and isnt the exterior of dad's will ?

It’s really difficult to understand what has happened.

I think you are saying that the mum and dad used to have mirror wills, in which each was the other’s beneficiary.

The mum then made a new will before she died. Joe is the executor.

You want to know what happens next, I think?

Joe acts on the current version of mum’s will. She can only will what she owns, so all of the money in her name, plus her part of the house if they were tenants in common. If they were joint tenants the whole house goes to the dad.

Dad’s will is unchanged by the death. He could change it whenever he wanted, assuming he has capacity.

Your post isn’t clear enough to work out what’s happening (or what you want to ask).

if a new valid will has been written the old ones don’t count and are ignored.

if mum has died then her will says what happens to the money and property she leaves.

What does your mum’s will say?

POA ends on death. Was Joe both POA and executor? These are two entirely separate things.

No, power of attorney dies with you.

It doesn't matter when her will was made, if it's valid, it stands. The money goes to her widower if that's what the will stated.

If dad can't manage his affairs and hasn't got capacity to make decisions, then social services may get involved, or someone can apply to be POA I think via the court of protection.

You are right, Joes poa is now void and does not relate to dad at all . I think you told us that their joint money now reverts back to dad , but as he is (presumably) not able to manage his own affairs this is going to be tricky to sort out. I guess, though I don't know, that this will be a job for mums executors in the first instance then as a pp says, the court of protection. I imagine the care home and local authority will take an interest - when you said dads care was being paid for, i wasn't quite sure who by?

What's to stop Joe creaming some money off !

I think dad's care paid for by proceeds of family house sale

He could have done that at any time before the mother’s death if he had POA. Once he has notified the banks that she has died POA ceases and the account is frozen.

An executor must keep records of all money received from the estate and its distribution
in case challenged. beneficiaries, or their representatives/attorneys could challenge the executor to prove that they haven’t stolen any money.

Does someone have POA for the dad?

Joe's POA lapsed with the death of the mum.

If they had mirror wills the money and assets(house) becomes dad’s and POA ceases to apply on her death.

Hang on - if the dad has dementia, who has POA over his affairs - was it the mum? And Joe had POA over her affairs?

You probably need to speak to a solicitor then.

Mum's will is enacted on her estate. The POA dies with her.

If you think Dad is at risk from Joe, then inform SS. Dad cannot now sign a POA if he does not have capacity so SS will take over to protect him

Yes , dad has no poa over him .he didn't want it before the dentist set in .

Money that was in Mom's bank account is hers but if it was a joint account it becomes his exclusively when she died and isn't part of her estate. Any money being paid to him (pensions for instance) even to an account that is just in Mom's name would be ring fenced to pay to him to pay for his care home fees from the date of her death.

If SS need to get involved they may look back over the last couple of years to see where Dad's money has been going and if it was being paid into an account with just Mom's name on it they may invoke something that would pull that back. If it was being "hidden" so it looked like he had less income than was true it would be consider deprivation of assets and might be claimed from Mom's estate no matter what the will says.

Do you know or just worry that Joe might skim money from the estate? Lot's of executors do, it happened in my own family. But fighting legally about this is like the old case where the fight goes on so long only the solicitors win and the family is left without a penny.

Well, that would be theft. So, whatever stops anyone from stealing I suppose.

Mum’s power of attorney ended upon her death. So Joe has no obligations under that.

If Joe is Mum’s executor, he is obliged to administer her estate in accordance with her Will. If Mum left her estate to Dad, then Joe must ensure the monies go to Dad. Whether Dad has dementia is irrelevant - it’s not for Joe to decide.

If Dad doesn’t have a POA, and is incapable of managing his financial affairs, a family member may apply to the Court of Protection for a deputyship order.

Upon Dad’s death, his estate will be passed to his beneficiaries in accordance with his Will.

Dad’s relatives need to go to the court of protection to ensure his wife’s will is appropriately carried out. That will remind the executor (Joe?) to fulfil his obligations.

@SmudgeButt no I don't think a deprivation of assets happened but once the dad had dementia I don't see why they would have a joint bank account and basically Joe was suddenly in charge in effect of both their finances !
Through the mums poa.

And all dad's money just blends and become the mums .
So in effect Joe may be able to inherit money through mum from dad even whilst alive.

Can two people do deputy ship

What DK you mean you "don't see why they would have joint bank accounts" after dad got dementia?

Why do you think that? Most people wouldn't change that due to a dementia diagnosis.

I think it would help if you told us who is Joe and what are all the relationships. What is your involvement?

Yes

@Negroany yes.

Dad has dementia no poa all assets are in his name

So Joe is stuck. The family house is sold and half used to buy the flat for mum and the monies and assets can therefore go into mum's name.

So they can all come under Joe's control.
Mum dies and leaves her will to the beneficiaries .
One assumes there is money to pay for dad
.