PCN question

[PCNquestions]

I really hope someone can help with this.

Received two penalty charge notices for driving through a restricted road, on same day, around same time.

Appealed both, and heard back from parking services at council.

Received one letter saying Peanalty one is cancelled. Received separate letter saying penalty one is not cancelled and must be paid. So same offence, two letters for same offence with different outcomes.

On letter saying not cancelled it mentions penalty two, and says this has been cancelled. So what has happened is they have muddled up the numbers/paperwork.

My question is, do I have to pay penalty one as I have it in writing that it has been cancelled, and have it in writing that penalty two is cancelled. But obviously also have a letter saying penalty one must be paid.

I know the rules are strict around the issuing of PCNs in that all the information must be correct. Where do I stand legally, is there any statutory wording I can give to support my case.

TIA

Did you do it or not? Did you do it twice?

Just pay the remaining one. The letters are dated presumably.

Otherwise you could write to them saying you feel both should be unequivocally removed from the records as clearly there has been an administrative mix up leaving your legal position unclear. Who knows what the outcome of that will be.

@PrincessofWells yes dated same date.
I’m interested to know where I stand legally with conflicting letters. As I mentioned, law is very tight around issuing of pcn’s. Just trying to ascertain what the law says about the responding letters.

@PrincessofWells also thank you, that wording is good. Couldn’t think how to word it, but that’s a great start. Thanks.

So I've had a look - disclaimer is I'm not a road traffic lawyer or criminal lawyer so this is way outside of my expertise but - I think the fpn must be served within 14 days. So there's some ambiguity about this because of the cancellation. I think I would be asking : -
Please advise me of the rule or regulation that allows an fpn to be reinstated following cancellation.
Please advise me why x̌xxxx local authority believe the requirement for natural justice does not apply to them. For example the law requires certainty, and this has been an administrative catalogue of errors.
If you didn't receive all the documents - eg cancellation and reinstatement within 14 days the local authority have probably failed to comply with the RTActs (see below).

And throw anything else at them you can think of.

If you're successful please pass it forward.

1Requirement of warning etc. of prosecutions for certain offences.
(1)Subject to section 2 of this Act, F1a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless]—
(a)he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or
(b)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or
(c)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(i)in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the M1Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,
(ii)in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

Raise it with them saying that you have it in writing from them saying both oenatlites are cancelled. They might try and make you pay, or they might let you off because of their mistake. Worth a try to clarify the position before paying anything.

@PrincessofWells thank you so much. I will contact them in writing today. In respect of time limits, they have done everything in time but it’s the error. An error was made to incur the penalties (and it was a genuine error) but they’ve made an error too.

@Doris86 thank you, yes will need to check anyway as it’s not clear what should be paid.

PCN’s is quite the rabbit hole, hence my post.

I will update with the outcome.

@PrincessofWells @Doris86
I said I would update with the outcome.
I emailed using the points and wording suggested. I immediately received a response saying fines were frozen at current level until they respond. (Which at the time was £80).

Then this week I received a charge certificate saying the fine was now £240 as I had not paid or appealed to the adjudicator.

I tried to call constantly and eventually spoke to someone who said not to worry(!), they’d get to my email and the charge notice would be have been triggered automatically by the date. But they couldn’t look at my specific case and only give generic information.

I had already sent a hard copy letter outlining all the details again and sent by recorded (as I couldn’t get through on the phone) and sent another email as suggested by person on phone.

I was pretty worried as the charge notice was strongly worded and said had to be paid within 14 days.

I’ve now received a letter from them saying given the errors both charges are cancelled, so obviously really pleased.

If anyone is searching for information in future, I would suggest making sure all the information is correct on the PCN’s and if incorrect appeal.

My reason for appealing was the sign on approach was obscured by a tree (had photos to show) and the other was there were no warnings on the approach and then nowhere to safely turn and avoid. I knew the second was less likely to be upheld but when the responses were sent it was unclear which one had been cancelled and which one was not and I wasn’t prepared to guess and pay in case I was wrong and then potentially receive a further fine.

There’s a lot information on Martin Lewis’ website, particularly about airport drop offs, so if you do get a PCN after an airport drop off, do check the information on there as it might be helpful.

I’m not sure how successful appealing to the adjudicator would be, but I did feel
very frustrated this week that I missed my opportunity to appeal and even more frustrated that I had an email saying fines were frozen and then by unable to actually speak to anyone on the phone.

Thank you for the posts on here which definitely helped.

OP we live in an area with these restrictions, it’s nauseating to say the least.
Am submitting an appeal today for very similar, your situation though sounds entirely bonkers but familiar.
We know of two other families who challenged 2 different PCN’s, same road but differing outcomes, I wonder if it’s the same council?

I detest the way these things are introduced sneakily and then thinly veiled as benefiting anybody at all, yet generates £££’s daily!

@DoubleShotEspresso I live in a London borough, there are LTN’s, school streets, box junctions, ULEZ.

The thing about LTN’s, they are supposed to reduce emissions as they hope people will leave their cars at home and walk or cycle as it would be quicker. But in reality they don’t. So you get bottlenecks of traffic in surrounding streets with traffic at a standstill or crawling along causing higher emissions.

I don’t disagree with the school streets, they are a really good idea and makes the journey to school by foot safer on that particular street, but imo, the councils should put parking restrictions around the neighbouring streets as the traffic is pushed out and the parking is dangerous and causes congestion, again increasing emissions and making it unsafe for parents and kids walking home from school.

I read an article recently about a street in London. An LTN was created so traffic was rerouted to avoid. An independent study found that rerouting the traffic was produce an extra 1 million miles a year. Which seems bonkers!

But these traffic calming measures are making huge amounts of money for councils so why wouldn’t they do it. My thought is, they should still ensure neighbouring roads are safe, particularly for schools kids, and they don’t always feel safe.

I would suggest you have a look at the PCN and make sure all the information is correct and it has been sent in time and maybe take photos of the area around the restriction and see if there are any obscured signs, any special circumstances they should consider for the infringement, if the lighting was sufficient above the sign (if it was dark), was warning given before the restriction and would you be able to safely avoid the restriction once you reached it.

It doesn’t hurt to appeal (within the given timeframe), the fine will be froze until they respond and check the response is correct. But I would say know when you’re beaten and pay the lower fine, unless you have a really compelling case to appeal to the adjudicator. Good luck and let us know how it goes.