How would a share of a house ever get to the children of the deceased partner if the other stayed in the house?

[quillfram]

Hi!
My mum passed away recently, and my dad has just bought a house with his new girlfriend.
They plan on marrying in the new year.
He said that he is protecting our interests by buying a large house. He has a mirror will with her (I don’t understand what this is really, but as far as I can tell, this is basically like having no will at all as she can just change it without him knowing? Why on earth would someone choose a mirror will over something else?)

He said that its in the will that if he passed away, she has the right to stay in the house, but if she sells it then she gets 50% of the value and me and my sibling get 50% between us.
But if she is the surviving partner, how would we even know if she came to sell it, if we have nothing to do with her after my dad dies?
How would his wishes be honoured if she stays in the house, then dies? Or goes into care. Surely her grown up kids would just sell the house and share the value between them?
We wouldn’t even know it had been sold most likely.
Can anyone advise on what would happen? Would us getting our share just be at her/her kids disgression? Would we have to check in every few years or something?
Does this arrangement actually protect nothing at all?
Where would we stand legally? Anywhere?

I’m not here for the lectures on ‘no one is guaranteed an inheritance’ etc - its my late mum’s money he’s bought this house with, its about honouring what she would’ve wanted to happen with everything she worked for.

thanks.

You aren’t listening @quillfram . If they have bought as tenants in common and he has left his half to you kids instead of the wife/girlfriend then when he dies his share of the house will be transferred to the beneficiaries and registered at the land registry. She will not be able to sell without the owner of the other part of the tenancy 8n common agreeing, so it cannot happen.

@quillfram - This is perfectly normal. When your father dies, ownership of his portion of the house will be transferred to a trust (not you personally, as some posters think). The trust will be operated by trustees who will be appointed by his will. That may be his executors, or you, or someone else. The trustees will protect your interests. Your father's new partner cannot sell the house without the trustees knowledge as they need to sign the documents transferring ownership. This arrangement absolutely does protect you and ensures that you will ultimately inherit your father's portion of the house.

Yes, if she tried to sell the property her solicitor would check the Land Registry to see if she was the legal owner. At that point, if you brother has done his job properly as executor and registered your joint ownership it will show up and she won't be able to proceed without your agreement.

As an extra failsafe you can register a Property Alert with the Land Registry and they will email you if someone tries to change the Land Registry record.

I honestly think this whole topic should be closed down on MN. No solicitor should be giving any advice on this forum bearing in mind they don't know the facts or jurisdiction. And the advice of non legally qualified people should not be relied on.

Do you have access to a free legal helpline as part of your home insurance @quillfram ? Nearly everyone does, even if they don't have legal cover as such.
My insurer's helpline was absolutely invaluable to me when I had to take over when my mum's executor renounced. Although they didn't act for me, they were able to advise me on what to do, and how the law worked with the specific problem I had. I was able to call several times to speak to actual solicitors and it didn't cost anything. So do check your home insurance.

You just need to ask him if his will provides for her to have a “lifetime interest” meaning she can stay in the house in her lifetime, with 50% of the value going to you and your siblings on her death. If the will is written that way then the gf can’t alter it after he dies. On the other hand, if they are both just leaving the whole lot to the other, with the other promising to do right by you when they die, they can change their mind if he dies first

I couldn't disagree more.

People are going to ask legal questions regardless of whether this topic exists. Occasionally such questions pop up on AIBU or elsewhere and get loads of responses from people who clearly don't know the law. It is not guaranteed that all the advice people get in this topic is accurate, but it is a lot more reliable than some of the legal "advice" posted elsewhere on Mumsnet.

If someone asks, for example, how much they can expect to get in divorce, the best they will get from a solicitor on here is information about the factors that will be taken into account. No-one legally qualified would dream of giving a precise answer without all the facts. But many of the posts, like this one, have enough information to offer general advice.

You are right that jurisdiction can matter. However, very few posts come from outside the UK and around 85% of UK posters are in England. Posters from elsewhere often say where they are from or use terms that make it clear they are not in England. Occasionally a poster from outside England and Wales will get advice that is incorrect for their jurisdiction, but the vast majority of posters get advice that is correct from at least some of those responding.

There are, by the way, a number of solicitors who disagree with you and are happy to offer advice on this forum.

I am a solicitor too. Ive been reading a lot of these for a while now and I have come to the conclusion they are inadvisable.

I cannot see how you can advise on detailed areas of the law without full facts. I think it's irresponsible. There's no nuance or clarity. No one can tell who is legally qualified or not. No one knows whether or not you are (I assume you are. You seem to be from my perspective. But I don't know for sure of course). There's no way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff. People should be encouraged to seek proper advice relating to their own circumstances, not given bits and bobs on MN. And for the solicitor to know that their advice is understood and not misconstrued.

Re jurisdiction, often people are Scottish. Which we often only find out well after a vast amount of gibberish has been spouted.

Remember when learning about professional ethics on the PSC we were taught even giving advice to a non-client at a party was a bad idea. You could still be sued. Of course this won't happen on MN. But that rule is there for a reason.

Anyway that's just my view. You obviously give a lot of advice on MN and hopefully its helpful to people.

This - even while they are both alive someone can change their “mirror will”

it simply means they have written the same to happen in both wills

it’s sounds like they are tenants in comment 50% each and giving the other partner an “interest until death”

they will need probate to sell which makes the Will public - you could sue her children if they didn’t follow the Will - they couldn’t just put your dads half in their names anyway

Also assuming you are executors for dads will you would deal
with land registry then

and of course get proper legal advice but I can see why people ask here as they want reassurance and some idea

This is really good advice, doesn’t necessarily have to be your own property either. I set up alerts for my house, my elderly parents’ house plus elderly MIL’s.
I’d read an article about someone who owned a house but didn’t actually live in it and basically a scammer sold the house to unsuspecting buyers! An alert would hopefully prevent anything similar happening.
Every six months or so I get an email from LR confirming there’s been no change regarding the properties.

Get a lawyer or legal advice.

This is incorrect. The legal ownership (what the Land Registry registers) would go to the surviving girlfriend / wife. But you would have half of the beneficial interest in the property - the surviving girlfriend is effectively holding half of the property on trust for you.

In terms of a future sale, the surviving girlfriend would have to appoint a second person to sell the property with her. However - and here’s the difficulty - that second person does not need to be you, your brother, or anyone connected with your Dad’s side of the family. The theory is that even if the first person is dishonest, a second person is unlikely to be so. The reality in this situation may be different.

You can apply to the Land Registry something called a Restriction which is the safest means of protection; however you will need legal advice because Land Registry are usually unwilling to enter any form of Restriction other than the standard form which requires the appointment of a second seller - and for the reason outlined above this is weak protection. Much better protection would be a Restriction which either requires your consent to a sale, or a certificate by a solicitor that the terms of the trust have been complied with (known as a Form N or a Form B Restriction respectively). But as I say these are not a slam dunk so you really need legal advice.

Again I’m sorry but this is incorrect advice. The OP has no right to registered as joint proprietor at the Land Registry when her father dies. This is not how tenancies in common work unfortunately. The house will be in the name of the girlfriend only, but the OP will have a beneficial interest in it under a trust. But details of trusts are kept off the register.

Incorrect

The advice to register for Property Alert is excellent and the OP should definitely take this up. This is how you will know about any impending sale.

However, it is not correct that Property Alert will tell you if your Dad and girlfriend decide to change their ownership from tenants in common to joint tenants. You could however order a copy of the register anytime to check this.

She can't sell without your permission, you would own half the house and any sale can't proceed without your consent

This exact same thing happened to my MIL. She thought she would be getting the house as it it belonged to her mum who died over 20 years before. I don’t know how it happened but he (her mum’s new partner who remained in the house) changed his will and it all went to a cat charity.

Once they marry any existing will is null and void. His half of the estate will pass to her unless he makes a new will.

She won’t be able to be registered as joint owner; that’s not how this arrangement works.

The poster who made the observation about jurisdiction makes a VERY good point - I have assumed you are in England or Wales, OP…?

No it wouldn’t - she would get 332k then half the rest if there is no new will

Gov. uk says;
'The alert will tell you the type of activity (such as an application to change the register or a notification that an application may be due), who the applicant is and the date and time it has been received'.
I had assumed that a change of tenancy would be 'an application to change the register'.
Sorry if I have misled anyone.

Hmm, that’s interesting! Maybe it would alert then.

Either way, the advice to register for Property Alert was sound 👍

I had alert about a charge in the register - it just said a charge and the solicitors that applied and date and time
so it’s just like a line of admin so to speak

I think it would say application to change register of they changed ownership

I think I then paid the £3 to get a copy for more detail

so the info they give you is pretty basic

You have the answer your brother is the executor so he will be the person dealing with the will and the formalities.