Specific issue order - is it possible to get a SIO amended?

[Raineeee]

It's quite complicated, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Background: both me and ex were from a country doesn't allow dual citizenship. Ex went for British citizenship and I kept my old nationality. I have indefinite leave to remain and have lived in the UK for over 10 years, I haven't travelled outside UK for 10 years.

We have one child who is 9. CAO states child lives with me and has contact with dad. Also a specific issue order is in place that I cannot take the child aboard without fathers permission. So the 28 days rule won't apply here.
Ex would never give permission.
Child is British citizen and both parents are on the birth certificate.

I moved out when child was a baby. Ex is always very abusive, but the family court didn't take the DV history into consideration when the order was issued. Although nearly 2 years ago ex assaulted me again and finally he got convicted for 2 crimes this time. Our child witnessed the whole thing, they were put in danger by dad that day, and needed mental health support.
Ex can't contact me directly, but is allowed to use a third party for child contact. He hasn't reached out for contact since the incident. If it's relevant, before the contact stopped, he never followed the child arrangement order. He saw the child fairly often but only at the time he wanted. I've always been very cooperative with contact time and did all I could to encourage the child to go.

Now the child is older and really wants to go on holidays with me. They do want to visit my home country, but don't mind if it's a holiday in France or Spain or something.
I'm not thinking about relocate at all. But if I can have the freedom to take her on holidays it would be lovely. I work but don't own a property in the UK (I always rent). We see UK as our home, our lives are here, and child is also doing extremely well in school.

Is there a chance I can overturn the SIO? I sort of gave up long time ago but will the new convictions and the fact that there's no contact for quite a long time give me a chance to get the order reviewed? Thank you in advance.

Hi there
Your situation sounds really tricky and you have been through a lot of trauma from your ex- massive kudos to you and for being so focused on your daughter. I am not a lawyer, but I do work in this field and I think you have a strong case to get this SIO revoked. By not seeing your daughter, he's effectively abandoned his parental responsibility and you have a reasonable and sound argument for wanting to take her on holiday. Contact a solicitor and get some legal advice as your next step. Good luck.

My concern about applying to discharge or vary the SIO is that dad would need to be served and it might reactivate his interest in your child - to be a nuisance to you rather than because he wants to see her.

If decide to apply to discharge the SIO frame your application around your child's best interests - wanting to enjoy trips abroad like her friends etc, questioning culture ( if you want to take her to your home country) and the benefits she would get and then move to your ties to the UK ( job, pension , long standing rental property that would be impossible to rent now ( such as social housing ) ILR status and the need for a returning visa if you left so you would never jeopardise ILR status).

Do you have family left in your home country - have they been able to travel to see you in the uk or are they too elderly? Is your DD missing out on a relationship with them? Is your DD interested in languages etc?

All things to emphasise if you to decide to go ahead with the application - it sounds from what you have said that you have an arguable case but I would personally fear sparking the father's interest again by making the application - could you ask for a no contact order if he tries to restart contact on the basis that restarting contact would be disruptive and the incident that led to his arrest justifies no contact - I assume the CAO was not formally varied at that stage?

Issue is that your daughter is of an age to have a say and the court might think it is best for her to maintain some type of relationship with him.

Out of interest, would the SIO that you currently have in place allow or not allow the child to go abroad without you for example on a school trip? Because your child will be reaching the age soon where that is a possibility.

i would have thought that the rationale for not allowing you to take a baby out of the country (where before school age there would undoubtedly be a reasonable risk you would seek to permanently relocate) is vastly different to the situation you have now. Family courts are used to situations changing over time and so I think it would be reasonable of you to seek to amend this.

Could you also look to vary the order with a specific time period? So in your application for variation specify something like “up to a maximum of 21 days, with proof of outbound and return flights provided to the other parent at time of booking”

It doesn't allow them to go on a school trip abroad without father's permission either. We were invited to go to France with friends family and couldn't go, but haven't thought about school trips yet. It's a good point thank you

What would happen if you just went abroad without saying anything? Is there a marker on your/dds passport? Would anyone know or are you just trying to do things correctly (obviously rightly so)?

Thank you for all the replies, they are very helpful. I've always wondered if it ever worth the effort (and the risk to poke the bear)
If I decide to take it to court in the end, would it be better to wait until child is older? I assume when they are 12/13 their wish will have more weight, is that true?

Ex's friend is a named third party who holds all the child's travel documents. They all expired about 4 years ago. And the SIO states I can't apply for a new one without farther's permission or a court order.
So it will be either we get the holiday idea out of our heads or take it to the court.

Poking the bear is a far better descriptor and what I meant!

The older the child the more weight the child's wishes and feelings carry but they would be balanced against the facts particular to you. For example, the risks that led to the SIO in the first place. Was it that your country of origin is not a Hague Convention country or a particular concern such as say an Afghanistan trip to see relatives for a daughter?

One point to consider is that the more you mention DV and your ex's behaviour the more flight risk you may appear to be.

If can take many months to secure an order and really you want the original SI order discharging rather than an order giving you permission to go on one holiday as otherwise you would need permission on each occasion adding to the cost of the holidays.

i also work in the field albeit not a lawyer, and I agree that based on the information you’ve given you’d have a strong case to discharge the SIO. The court should always act in the child’s best interests and of course it’s in her best interests to be able to go on holiday with family or take part in school trips with all her friends.

The risk is yes, you’ll be poking the bear, but equally given the circumstances you describe I wouldn’t expect the court to go chasing down routes about contact. Although you can never be sure.

Thank you for the reply, I see what you mean.

Don't want to be outing so won't name the country, where I from won't cause a safety concern. I also know ex went back to visit his family a lot of times during all these years. (I know because he went to hassle my family every time he was there)
It's a lovely place to live and a popular travel destination as well. My family lives there and is financially very comfortable. So probably won't help lower the risk of me not returning...

I'll look into it a bit more. My head is still messy, sometimes I feel well why don't I just go and get British citizenship. I don't even have a specific reason to keep my original one. But I somehow feel it's the last thing I'm in charge. It let me convince myself that I haven't abandoned my whole life and who I am just to be safe.

Before I could decide what to do with the SIO, which I think could take me a while. I guess it won't hurt to keep building my pension pot bigger etc. So I will have more proof to show I'm settled here. I'll have a look at what other things I can do.

Thanks again for everyone's advice.

Apply for the variation.

Sure, the father will be served, and may then ask the court to look at contact again, but given his recent criminal record, the emotional damage inflicted on the child from witnessing the attack on you, that contact may well only be indirect or supervised - at least initially. It is not unreasonable for the SIO to be revoked in order to permit you to travel with your child, and to order new travel documents.

The restrictions made were severe (involving a third party non-lawyer to hold documents is unusual), so there must have been real evidence available at the time the order was made that you would take the child without father's consent - but the situation has changed, you have ILR, you and the child are settled here and see it as your home. Definitely arguable in court for a change in the order and worthwhile applying.

The points about missing out on culture, family, language etc., in your home country are VERY valid, as are the points on missing out on holidays abroad with family and friends, and trips abroad with school. All worth mentioning as all are in the child's best interests (which is the court's paramount focus).

I don't say this because the order doesn't work my favour, but that judge clearly didn't like me. English is my 4th language and was still new to me at that time. I could do daily conversations but court talk is very different. I spoke slowly during the hearing and needed to stop and ask for the meaning of certain words. I guess judge found me hard to understand so didn't bother to listen to me. It was ex's barrister Vs myself.
Ex wanted the named third party and judge ordered everything he asked. The way this judge talked to me was awful. They asked me to go back and think what can I learn from this relationship. Which ex always quotes in his abusive emails.

Luckily I got legal aid soon after this hearing and also had some much nicer judges. Otherwise I doubt I'll even get the live with order. SIO was already issued at that point sadly.

Judges are human, so there are some lousy ones as well as great ones, and then all those that fall in between the two extremes.

The key thing here is that you have good reasons for asking the court to vary that SIO. So don't be put off applying.