Stopping child contact - scared of court

[Giraffe888]

I recently left my H after 11 years of domestic abuse. We have three small DC.

I have everything logged with the police, my GP and have had from a DA charity. Social services have been involved after referrals from the police but only in terms of making sure me and my children are ok.

H was continually harassing me and turning up in places after separation so I applied for an ex parte non molestation order which was granted, and he didn’t contest it so it didn’t need a court hearing. It’s in place for 1 year.

He has been having the children EOW and it’s just horrific. Everytime they come back they tell me of more things that he is saying to them to emotionally abuse and manipulate them. He tells them he knows where we live, that he has people watching our house, shows them photos of our home on google maps, says mummy sends rubbish clothes, says mummy ruined their lives, mummy caused everything and it’s all my fault, that if they ever move school they’ll lose all their friends and will never have anymore etc etc. the list is endless.

when they come home they are so emotional, angry, overtired and just really unsettled for about a week. It’s massively impacting my son at school and there’s concerns already been highlighted from them on how he is when he’s been at dads.

He has an older child who stopped seeing him 3 years ago as ex was violent to him. His child and also his ex girlfriend would be prepared to do a witness statement on what H is like.

From advice from my solicitor and social services I have decided I’m going to stop contact. I have no intention of applying to court for a CAO, I’m leaving that to H for if he decides to do so.

what scares me is that he’s always said he wants 50:50, I know it can be down to what judge you get, but given all this what is the likelihood he’d get 50:50 or anywhere near that kind of contact?

You need to apply for a child arrangements order, and perhaps a prohibited steps order - if you don't, then the father can simply pick the kids up from school and retain them from you (which is what you are doing).

If there's a dispute (which there is), and which cannot be resolved between you or by mediation (not suitable), then court is your only option.

@JustAnotherLawyer2 I’m aware of that but I don’t want to take it to court as it opens up the opportunity for him to request 50:50 and as I said I’m petrified that he will get it. I know he could technically pick them up from school at anytime, but there’s plans in place to prevent that and I also don’t think he’d be that stupid.

going by your username, can you offer any advice on what contact he would maybe be given if it did go to court?

I'm sure you can't prevent that as he had PR.

Court is your best option. They will do what right for the dcs.

I think it depends if you think he would realistically take you to court for 50/50. If there is any likelihood of that, and there is no evidence of abuse to these children then I don't think there is a guarantee he won't get it, which is why I'd be inclined to stick with the EOW so that you can at least limit contact to that. I only say this as I've heard of people on here who have experienced DA say it didn't affect their ex getting a fair amount of contact with the kids.

@ThatCleverCoralCrow he’s recently started asking for more contact (he wants 5 nights in a row). EOW has proven so damaging to them already so what he is requesting would be detrimental to them

he asked for this 2 weeks ago, they then came home from him the following weekend and they repeated a lot of things that have seriously affected how they have been since that weekend which is why I’ve decided to stop contact as it was the final straw to a long list of things he has been saying to them that are clearly having a huge negative impact on them. My son’s school have picked up on it and their behaviour this week has been like I’ve never seen before

If social services have told you to stop contact then you are in a strong position to do that. Do you have that in writing?

How likely is it that he will apply for a CAO? He didn't contest the NMO, so if you stop contact will he bother with a CAO? If he would then you're going back to court whether you like it or not, so it may as well be on your terms: apply for a lives with order and a prohibited steps order stopping him collecting them from school.

In terms of whether or not he might get more contact - it is all about evidence. A lot of people who have experienced DA minimise it so there is nothing from the GP, local authority, police, the school or anybody else, and IME that's where it can get tricky. But it sounds like you have a lot of evidence both of the abuse during the relationship and also of post-separation abuse, including transferring onto the children. If a court is satisfied that he has continued the abuse via your children then they are unlikely to give him additional (or any unsupervised) time with them.

I can sympathise, I wouldn't want the contact either but it's about what the courts will do (I don't agree that people who commit DA should get 50/50 but it's been done without evidence of abuse to the children specifically). Obv you don't want the kids getting dragged through the courts but I'd be gathering as much evidence as you can - concerns from the school specifically about dad, social Services reports etc just in case he takes you to court - in order to at least be able to show why contact should be limited. Without there being evidence of abuse to the kids beyond what you see in a change in their behaviour the courts won't stop contact. Speak to SS about stopping contact fully and see if they support that.

@WiggyPig @ThatCleverCoralCrow social services won’t put anything in writing as I’ve not got a social worked actively involved with us (not needed) and because although they are recommending that it’s wise to do so, they’re not telling me that I’ve got to if that makes sense?

I really have no idea if he will apply for a CAO. He has an older son who he used to have EOW contact with and although he always moaned to me he wanted more, I used to tell him to apply to court for more access but he never did.

Maybe he’ll be more likely to apply for a CAO with me stopping contact than what he would if he was still having EOW but I refused his 5 night request. I’ve no idea how he will go.

do I let the EOW continue to reduce the risk of him applying to court, but knowing everytime they go my children are being emotionally abused/manipulated and that I’ll have a few days of hell to deal with when they get home? Or do I just stop contact and see what he does? I wish someone could just make the decision for me!

I can only offer an opinion online, (it's not advice).

The opportunity is always there for him to go back to court and ask for more time with the kids, whether you apply or he applies.

But the choice is obviously yours as to whether you apply to court or wait for him to do it.

Courts favour contact, unless there are safeguarding issues - so the court will determine if the concerns warrant a change in the contact, be that an increase or a decrease, based on all the evidence it gathers before making a decision.

@JustAnotherLawyer2 I truly appreciate your opinion. Have you any experience/opinion in what amount of contact court might give given our background/circumstances that I have mentioned?

I agree with the PP saying try to gather written evidence of his damaging behaviour with the children. School correspondence, letters from the GP or health visitors regarding their mental health, even your solicitor who made the recommendation. Are there text messages to him where you have formally asked him to refrain from parental alienation? Could a solicitor draft one and send it so it is taken seriously? That will show you have tried to co parent with him but it has failed and that you are safeguarding your children by withholding contact.

Otherwise, I don't think I would withhold contact as it could aggravate a situation. I don't work in law but am applying to the court for a cao myself as I don't want the threat of my ex taking my kids as it may take a long time to get them back. I hope it shows I am wanting to protect them with a court order rather than the court needing to protect the father's right to see the kids if I withheld contact. I can't say what is best for you, but if it goes to court either way, then have your evidence ready that withholding is a safeguarding move and not vindictive. Going by court experience on MN, unless a father is physically abusive towards their children, the court will give the father reasonable contact.

@Farticus101 I have text messages of me asking him to stop emotionally abusing the children and him saying I was being ridiculous, my solicitor then sent him a letter requesting him to stop and to stop bringing the children into adult matters, he said it was a piece of paper which meant nothing. Then the following week the police rang him regarding harassment of us and told him to stop bringing the children into things and again he ignored it. So he has been told on three occasions