Disability, bailiff, right to entry…

[RainbowBrighite]

Complicated one.

Court bailiffs, warrant of control. I believe issued when adult B was sofa surfing/ of no fixed abode. It’s by the by I guess by now but debt was possibly not their debt originally (possible financial abuse), they are intellectually disabled to some level with MH problems and probably should have refuted it.

Adult B moved in with Adult A who lives in social housing. Not on the tenancy agreement but after advice they do pay council tax, rather than claim single person discount with two people living there. Relationship, adult A has a similar disability-neither can really read fluently and certainly can’t comprehend letters without support.

Adult B has no items they own, moved in with clothes only. Too chaotic to make a universal credit claim etc. gets DLA only as income. Adult A does have some low value goods, second hand TV/ games console and furniture.

Adult B has been traced by bailiffs to the property who have sent the warrant of control with a date.

• can they enter the property if B paying towards council tax, but not the tenancy. They do stay there and have for a few months, but own nothing bar some clothing in the property / don’t pay rent etc.
• how can adult A protect their property? Receipts are unlikely as it’s all second hand/ off selling groups over the years or gifts.
• what advice would you give, bearing in mind their limited capacity for on the spot verbal communication- they both have notable difficulties with communicating due to disabilities

thank you

Can someone call social services for them on their behalf? Are they struggling enough to be defined as vulnerable?

Do neither of these adults have a support worker or social worker? Or any family/friends fulfilling that role? If not, they need one, now really.

If B is on the council tax then they do live there, whether they pay towards rent is irrelevant at that point really- it is their registered address.

Adult A is a bit stuck now really, they’d need to prove items are theirs and not jointly owned/used which is going to be tricky, although they could still take jointly owned items with court approval. They can’t take basics like fridge, bed etc but games console etc is fair game.

Social services handed things over to advocates/ charity years ago. Support has been erratic and tbh inadequate. They aren’t the highest need, but yet have difficulties. I’m trying as family, but it’s really hard. Historically these volunteer advocates etc have made mistakes, like saying they would process forms they didn’t. It’s not been something to rely on.

i think in the property there are two items at risk, a gifted games console and the second hand TV

Its nightmare after nightmare trying to manage life with issues like this over the years- I’m asking as someone a bit burnt out!

In recapping a debt, bailiffs

• cannot collect items in the home of the individual that do not belong to the individual.
• can collect items owned by the individual AND others, if there are not enough individual belongings to recoup the debt owed.

I guess my biggest question is why has it got to this point? What is Adult Bs debt for? How are you involved and why? I mean my first thought is if Adult B has got into debt because they are disabled and have been lacking support, but now they are being supported and have stable housing, has anyone informed the company(ies) that they are in debt to about the issues they are facing. Could you or anyone else support them in doing this?

If you are now able to support them, it might be worth contacting the company and informing them. The company might still be happy to cancel the bailiffs and set up a payment plan for a vulnerable person if you can now ensure that this gets paid?!

To clarify A has been supported historicity. Adult B not supported but possibly higher need. Adult B I’ve only known for a few months, I’ve supported A. I’m having to talk to B to support A with this, otherwise tbh I wouldn’t

I can’t work out or make sense of what the debt is! It’s old, no paperwork. I think, I’m not sure, somebody had a debt and put B’s name to it? They signed a contract or something, but it was someone else’s goods. Convoluted- I can’t work it out tbh. I’d guess they can’t read and signed something, but have then evaded it sofa surfing and it’s mounted up?

I would also encourage applying for UC or all the right benefits as it sounds like this is required.
surely B would be entitled to social housing or supported housing as they don’t seem able to manage independently.

can you contact mencap or sense or similar for advocacy advice and support?

CAB or community law service is also required to support B with debt management.

I might start by going to Social Services with a large box of bangers

There should be a Client Finance team to look after those who cannot do it themselves and can make a Universal Credit claim for them

I’ve been raising UC for some time, not least because A’s finances are stretched….MH is a problem with engaging

The bailiff though is the urgent step

What is difficult is I don’t really know B well, and only communicate with A who is the one who wants help. Realistically they are the one I can help, and who may listen. I can’t really make B do anything, nor are they asking. But A is affected. Just… difficult

The thing is at this point A can’t really do anything at all- B has moved in, A allowed that, this is now B’s known address as per council tax.

Anything in the property aside from essentials is ultimately now fair game as a result.

The only “next step” you can advise A of, and it’s of limited use now, is to ensure B moves officially back out and A does not move anybody else in.

A could ask B to leave

His Housing Officer can help with this

B then becomes homeless & Social Services or The Council has to address his issues

Contact the Adult Safeguarding team in Social Services and ask for an urgent assessment of need, a social worker should be able to contact the company dealing with the debt, the company can refer the case back to the court and creditor for further review.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/bailiffs/#:~:text=Are%20there%20any%20time%20restrictions,break%20into%20a%20debtor's%20property.

I agree with this.

This would be my recommendation for many reasons….

thanks all for comments. Reading some info on line I think the items may be too low value to take. The games console is very old, a nominal amount at CEX and therefore unlikely to raise money at auction at all and likewise the TV would struggle to get £40 on Facebook. There’s literally nothing else I can think of, it’s a semi-carpeted flat with old second hand stuff. No possessions of value. You’d walk in and see at a glance.

The court hearing for the debt was nine years ago I’ve just seen on the paperwork. Warranty issued just over nine years later

Unless it's an unpaid magistrates court fine or a tax debt the bailiffs have no right to force entry so they should not let them in and should make sure all windows and doors are locked. Communicate through the letterbox or an upstairs window.

If they do gain entry they are only allowed to take items belonging to the debtor or jointly owned by the debtor. They are not allowed to take items belonging to other household members. In the absence of receipts they are supposed to accept a signed declaration as proof, but obviously this is difficult if they have issues with comprehension and reading.

There are special rules for how bailiffs must treat vulnerable debtors so they must be made aware of this. They should then not enter the property if the vulnerable person is alone, should not take any items on a first visit and should allow extra time to get debt advice and make a payment offer.

If you can, it's best to call the bailiffs and explain the situation before they turn up. Ideally call them when the debtor is with you so they can give permission for the bailiffs to discuss the debt with you. Otherwise call while A is with you and they can give permission as the householder. Make sure they understand that both the debtor and the householder are vulnerable. Ask them to put the enforcement on hold.

More info here:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/

Definitely also contact other sources of help urgently - adult safeguarding, housing officer, CAB - and definitely advise A to ask B to leave.

This is all correct. Even if they do let the Bailiffs in the Warrant should be returned as the goods aren’t of sufficient value.

Realistically though the Bailiffs will want them to make a payment plan.

The easiest way to stop the temporarily whilst you sort this out is to try and get them to apply for Breathing Space and inform the Court Bailiffs and the Creditor that this has been done.

You should also inform the Creditor of B’s vulnerabilities and say that you think that they should stop pursuing the debt. It’s preferable to do this in writing as it can be a bit of a lottery on who you get on the phone and how they deal with vulnerable customers.

I'm too tired to work my way through everything in the thread, so dropping in here to ask: Are you able to 'advocate' for them? I suggest phoning the bailiffs, explaining the gist of the situation and making an appointment for them to visit with you present.

Bailiffs aren't that bad, I get a visit every so often. They won't take the TV. It's considered an essential. Games console would be fair game but not if it doesn't belong to the debtor. Anything worth having in my house is owned by someone else, I have to sign a form saying so and that's it.

They are not going to steal A's property to pay B's debts. I'd expect them not even to try much of an investigation, given the intellectual impairments.

Don't panic! And thanks for looking out for these two.

This is completely incorrect. Only items that belong solely to the debtor are 'fair game'. Anything belonging solely to A cannot be taken; all that's required is a signed declaration.

Bailiffs will not remove the lone TV from the property, as it is considered an essential. They are extremely unlikely to remove an old videogames console as it will hold no value.

I agree that long-term, B moving out is a sensible option, but there are plenty of measures that can be put in place in the meantime. The first being to notify all involved that both the debtor and the tenant of the property are vulnerable, which will trigger additional protections in terms of how they are dealt with.

Nope, not quite. If the person alone does not have items of sufficient value then they can absolutely take jointly owned items with court approval.

Unless A could clearly prove they were not jointly owned items & that’s tricky with no receipts etc.

I can’t imagine that any Creditor is going to apply to the Court for permission in circumstances like these, especially of the Creditor has been notified that the tenants are vulnerable.

Do Creditors often make an application to take jointly owned property in your experience @Mrsttcno1?

Thank you, the signed declaration is good to know.

I have realised an obvious point I missed. Whilst no receipts B has lived there a few months, as per council tax. There is evidence the items have been at the property for years I’ve been able to note.

Why is B a liable party for Council Tax if he isnt the tenant?

If it's from 9 years ago and no payments have been made in the last 6 years the debt is statute barred. You need to get a debt caseworker on it. If cab don't have one, the social housing provider might have support, or a law centre with additional funding.

Get help from a debt advice charity or CAB. They will be able to do stuff that you as an individual won't have the clout to do, like arranging a repayment plan, getting the bailiffs called off, potentially writing the debt off. Look at this website, it's government backed.

www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/money-troubles/dealing-with-debt/debt-advice-locator