Worth enforcing tribunal win for unpaid wages?

[MoneyTaIks]

Hey all,

Had a tribunal rule in my favour a few weeks back for just shy of £5k in unpaid wages from a former employer.

The situation is that the company is still active so I'm unable to claim anything from the insolvency fund. However, there are zero assets left looking at Companies House. Most equipment was rented.

The situation was that the company faced financial issues and were unable to pay us. None of us saw it coming as work was busy and on the surface should've been profitable. However, the parent company (medium sized construction firm) had apparently been leeching money from our side of the business and eventually the whole thing collapsed.

From what I gather the parent company just took on too much. Big school project, another project building a block of 100 flats from scratch, alongside many smaller projects. Big jobs that require thousands upon thousands to complete before seeing a return.

Anyway, my old boss is still doing OK. He has several smaller businesses and about 50 rental appts. I do some work for a guy that was a manager there and he saw ex boss holidaying on a business class flight to Dubai then other week. Guy is absolutely rolling in it but obv it's a limited company so I think his personal wealth is out of scope.

So my question is: what happens if I take it to the County Court through the 'enforce a tribunal judgement' process and the company are instructed to pay? I'm a few hundred short of the £5k debt necessary to start a winding up order and I understand that it's not always a straightforward process. Additionally, it looks like somebody else attempted back in 2023 which is when my tribunal started. Companies House essentially says something to the effect that satisfactory reasons were given for keeping the business open.

I'm guessing my ex boss doesn't want to liquidate company in case they do further investigation possibly resulting in a decision of bad conduct which could affect his director status in his other businesses - he's done all kinds of dodgy stuff like claiming furlough money for staff who were still working etc, which I didn't know at the time.

I also note that CH states that his other business is no longer affiliated, which means there was previously some interaction there. My understanding is that if they were liquidated any debts could be chased from subsidiaries, creating a knock on effect.

So I'm wondering whether it's worth dropping a few hundred on the enforcement pipeline just to see whether it pressures him into paying. He defo doesn't seem to want to liquidate the business. When I asked about this at the time his reply was that "if you claim it back from the government then I've not paid my debts like I want to" which I know is utter bollocks.

He's already paid back some of the more important guys who could cause him problems (one of them was getting £35k a month!) and I know he could absolutely pay me back tomorrow as I still work in the same industry with a lot of the same people.

I honestly feel like paying somebody to go and torch all his luxury cars at this point! I'm only half joking.

I have a tribunal judgement for £66k and I can't get it.
One director went to prison the other just disappeared. All premises mothballed.

If the company is still trading you can send in bailffs

I should add that when I got my original tribunal date he called ACAS a few days before the hearing (having completely ignored them until that point) and offered to pay me £200 a month. I accepted as I knew it would be legally binding and was just planning to put it into my savings acct each month.

I was days away from it being finalised when the tribunal rescheduled my hearing due to 'lack of judicial resource'. My boss then went incognito at that point. Really frustrating!

In fact, the whole process was an absolute joke. The tribunal forgot to send me the pack about my hearing so it was only when I called to chase that I discovered it was the following week - with a bank holiday in between where I was supposed to be going away! I agreed to cancel my trip and sort all the documents (which they said was fine) but they then cancelled it after the weekend, but added a comment about it 'being highly unlikely to have gone ahead anyhow as the claimant hadn't provided the documents by the requested date'. 😡 They hadn't notified me of the date and had then agreed it was OK to send them after the weekend (had loads of bank statements I needed to get and was working away at the time).

It then dragged on for another year without being rescheduled and the final few months I sent numerous emails and called literally hundreds of times without being able to get through. I remember trying on a few days where I was off work or travelling and I literally called every 10-20 minutes for eight hours straight without getting through. I tried 150 times over the space of about 1.5 weeks at one point.

The only reason it eventually got sorted was because I complained to the governing body. I had a judgement within a week after that. Months prior to that they'd told me it had actually just been passed to a judge and I should have a result in the next few days (after which I wasn't able to get through for another three months via phone/email).

Ouch! I'm sorry to hear that. That's a considerable sum.

The issue is that the premises likely has little of value there. Both sides of the company shared an office which was owned by one of the two directors of the parent company (only one of them was involved on our side and it was the other that owns the premises).

The building is a listed building with something in the region of 50 rental appts (separate from the ones I mentioned my boss has) and they were building a lot more via an extension which is unlikely to have been completed. I've no idea what the office is being used for two years later (possibly leased out) but even if it remains unchanged it'll just be a few computers and desks etc. However, I can't see that they've left all their stuff there.

I understand two predefined pathways are sending off the form to involve a High Court Enforcement Agent (bailiff) or to send off the form to enforce it through the County Court.

What I'm wondering is what happens if the CC tell the business to pay and they don't? Surely you can't just ignore the court as he has the tribunal? Even if they don't instruct the company to wind up (which seems unlikely for >£5k) is there some kind of legal penalty for ignoring the court?

What I'm hoping is that I can just be enough of a pain that he pays up to rid himself of the hassle. This is the type of guy that would bet £5k on a racehorse without blinking but he's pretty hard nosed and tight with his money.

Another more lateral option is contacting the local Sikh temple and raising his conduct with them. Both directors are very active in the local Sikh community and it annoys me that they both project an image of being upstanding whilst having screwed over so many employees.

It's a matter of principle more than anything. They kept promising to pay me and I would've been owed a lot more if I'd kept on working after missing the second payday. Clearly they just wanted me to keep bringing in funds to the company by continuing work but had no intention of paying. The longer I continued working the less they'd have to reimburse the end client I worked for.

Hum I'd go the bailff route. My colleagues and I tried that but no one was there. You can also do the government scheme but they have to be bankrupt.
I would have thought the reputation of your old boss was important to him. Have you spoken to the council? It might be worth a shot.

The company isn't doing any business though. It's 'active' but essentially dormant. So I doubt he'd care.

I don't think the bailiff route would be much good as the business hasn't been at the premises listed on the tribunal docs since 2023. Very slim chance it might give him a kick up the arse as it's his mate's building, but more likely the bailiff will ring the buzzer and nobody will answer. If a resident does they'll probs tell them the business isn't there anymore. That's if it hasn't been let to somebody else. I doubt they've just left all the printers etc just sitting there for two years.

I'm not sure whether what I'm envisaging is something that could realistically happen but I feel like a court order to the business to pay might be the best thing. Even if it isn't a winding up order something that would bear a penalty if ignored.

I can't find much concrete info on this. What happens if the small claims or county court orders a business to pay up and the business just ignores the court order?

2. Pursue Court Action:

Fast Track Scheme:

You can use the Fast Track scheme to instruct a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO). The HCEO can seize assets from your employer's business to cover the debt.

County Court:

You can apply to your local County Court to register the tribunal's decision as a debt, which the court can then enforce.

It's the second option that I'm looking at. How can the CC enforce the debt?

If the company has no assets and is not trading, enforcement action will just be throwing good money after bad. The bailiffs can only seize goods that are owned by the company, so sending them in won't achieve anything.

Note that other companies owned by your ex-boss are not subsidiaries. They are only subsidiaries if the company owns them.

I'm just looking at an old thread about the same situation and the suggestions seem to be saying that if I enforce the debt and they can't pay it they'll be subject to involuntary redundancy.

I'm not sure about the ins and outs of this. I'm not too keen on initiating an actual winding up order in itself as in addition to the small fee you need to front £2600 for the management of the process which can be claimed back if they company have the assets (which they don't).

This approach doesn't seem worthwhile as once the tax has been taken there won't be much left of the £4500 debt after an additional £2600 has been removed. It depends whether the inability to meet a payment order would initiate the winding up itself, which is what the poster seems to be suggesting.

I've also been advised that I may be able to use another service to enforce that they make me redundant. It's not just about whether they have the assets. It's the fact that they're still listed as active so I can't reclaim the money from the insolvency fund.

Will post the reply I'm talking about.

The steps you'll need to take next are as follows:

1. First, you need to submit a claim against the company to the County Court Money Claims Centre. You can do this online.
2. When judgment is given, presumably in your favour, the company will then need to pay you. If it cannot do so, you can enforce the judgment.
3. If the company is unable to pay you when the judgment is enforced, it will be subject to involuntary insolvency proceedings. These proceedings will also look at any wrongful trading by the company or any preferential transactions in the year prior to insolvency (e.g. if the Directors removed money from the company to pay preferred creditors because they knew it was insolvent).

If the directors are found to have made preferential transactions or committed wrongful trading, they made have to reimburse you from their own money. If I was advising them, I may tell them to pay you now depending on the circumstances because if they have made preferential transactions or committed wrongful trading they are also likely to be disqualified as directors.

To enforce through the county court you would still need to instruct bailiffs or use other enforcement proceedings they won't just make an order paying by instalments unless the debtor asks to pay in that manner. In the absence of any assets to enforce against you won't get anything unless they choose to pay. It will be similar enforcement as in HC such as a charge, bailiffs or garnishee orders against funds in a bank account (always difficult). Does the company own any property against which you can levy a charge? My guess is not if you say no assets.

I am unsure why you thought you could enforce against a parent company or other subsidiary as you can't. If rhe debtor company has no assets or cash at present the judgment is not worthless to you. Issuing a Winding Up Petition is expensive and likely to get you nowhere too.

I appreciate the advice so far but could I request that we stop discussing bailiffs because I've indicated from the start that this is unlikely to be a viable option.

The bailiffs/enforcers are associated with the High Court but what I want to know is what happens if a payment order from the CC is ignored. It's not about the assets of the company. It's about the fact my boss has the ability to pay and is paying off the people who are being the biggest thorn in his side.

The company has zero assets but is very likely to have been involved in practices that he doesn't want to come to light. What I'm wondering is whether I can trigger an investigation into these by some manner of involuntary liquidation (hopefully from inability to meet a payment order rather than me spending thousands on a winding up order) or whether I can request to be made redundant. For example, if he has made preferential payments then it may be the case that he becomes personally liable for resolving this, at which point he may just think sod it and pay me to avoid this scenario. He was talking about paying me £100 a month but has happily agreed to start paying another ex employee £800 a month as this guy was going to speak with one if the local Sikh councillors and he didn't want to bad publicity.

Years ago I managed to get an employer to make me redundant after they'd put a few of us on short time working in an attempt to a avoid paying redundancy fees - I'd been there five years but they just made the majority of staff redundant as there wasn't much to pay to those that hadn't been there long. That was a different situation but the company was still active and I forced redundancy after the statutory four months and was able to claim back a decent sum.

Thanks for replying. We cross posted there. My comment about not focusing on bailiffs wasn't in response to your reply.

So what I'm wondering is whether there is any chance they would be told to wind up as the previous poster suggests without me pursuing an expensive winding up request?

Also, is there any way I can force redundancy in an effect, given that I'm no longer an employee having quit after the second non payment due to financial reasons (I needed to pay my bills!)

For me, it's not just about the company asserts. It's that I'm unable to claim from the gov as the company is just sat there with active status but no assets.

Can they just indefinitely stay active and leave me in limbo?

Yes they can stay inactive. If they trade whilst insolvent that would be different and again a petition could be issued on the basis of trading whilst insolvent but as expensive as issuing in respect of a debt. Indeed better for you to do as the debt because then if they want to avoid it they need pay you but the other way would need to clear all debt.

A company can just remain inactive or dormant . As you quit then it won't be redundancy situation either I'm afraid.

I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of options available tbh. It's not the easiest to navigate.

It seems in addition to enforcing the tribunal through either the HC or CC, or separately taking it to the CC or small claims court, there's also a service to reclaim the money if the company is insolvent (I'm not sure if this just means insolvent in terms of having no assets as opposed to having 'registered for insolvency'?)

I know I can't claim from the National Insurance Fund unless company have liquidated, which is presumably why people would sometimes initiate a winding up order. However this appears to possibly be another route to claiming it back from the gov. It says redundancy 'or other monies owed'.

www.gov.uk/claim-redundancy

Use this service to claim money if your employer owes you a redundancy payment or other money like wages, holiday and commission.

Your employer must be unable to pay you, for example because they’re insolvent.

I am unsure why you thought you could enforce against a parent company or other subsidiary as you can't.

I don't think I stated that I could.

I'm saying that my boss's other company was affiliated with this one in some way - it's says on companies house that it's no longer affiliated/has an interest or whatever the jargon is. I was thinking that if they were unable to meet a payment order and hence were involuntarily made insolvent (as that poster was stating they could be) any money transferred to the other company or any preferential payments would potentially become the personal liability of my boss.

The fact that he seems desperate not to liquidate the company despite it being insolvent makes me think he doesn't want any closer investigation. As I said, I know they have done things like claim furlough money for employees still working. I also know they were falsely presenting their revenue to one of the directors whose contract stated he was paid a certain percentage of profits in order to pay him less.

I subsequently worked for an ex manager of this business and he said he would chase the money as they will probably rather pay me than invite further investigation. They paid him off his £20k after he threatened to report them to HMRC.

So can you say whatever the guy that got £20k said so they pay you off to shut you up too?

Maybe.

I'm a bit confused about the above pathway. It states that you can claim unpaid wages in the instance of redundancy or if the company can't pay you.

However, upon starting to complete the form it seems I need a CN number which you only get either when made redundant or if company files for liquidation/insolvency.

So, I thought that I basically can't claim the money from the gov unless company are wound up which seems logical - why else would people pursue winding up orders.

But having just asked Google AI I'm getting another story.

Yes, in the UK, if your former employer is still active but unable to pay your unpaid wages due to insolvency, you can claim some of the money owed from the government's Redundancy Payments Service. This service, also known as the Insolvency Service, can cover up to 8 weeks of unpaid wages, as well as holiday pay and statutory notice pay.

The distinction seems to be that 'insolvency' can either be the official status of having filed for insolvency or actually just being insolvent in terms of having no cashflow.

However, unless I'm mistaken a company can't be 'active' but also have been liquidated. So it's looking like I may still be able to claim the money back in current situation whereby they're active but unable to pay (zero assets listed on Companies House).

EDIT: I think the Redundancy Payments Service is the one I just started filling out form for. The ones asking for CN reference. I'm a bit confused how I can apply to claim back the money with them still being active if I need a number only issued upon liquidation?

Unless I need to have been made redundant, but it doesn't specify that. The whole thing is pretty confusing.