Bona vacantia confusion

[TweedleTarmac]

J died intestate in 2008 and his estate was added to the Bona vacantia list.

J was survived by his mother, B, who died intestate in 2015, but she was survived by her spouse W (second husband, not J’s dad).

J had 2 full siblings, both still alive (N and G).

As J predeceased his mother the person with the valid claim to the Bona vacantia division is B, but as she is deceased, her husband W is eligible to claim.

As W died in 2017, he cannot apply to Bona vacantia.

Can a Bonis non second grant of letters of administration for B can be saught by her daughter, N? Ie, could it be said that as she was due to inherit her son’s estate, part of her estate is unadministered and therefore a bonus non grant would be appropriate?

If N claims her brother J’s estate on behalf of her mother, who are the beneficiaries according to intestancy rules?

Is it simply N and G as they are full siblings of J? Or is it W’s surviving beneficiaries as he was in line to inherit B’s estate?

If you actually managed to follow any of that, then thank you!!!

"Is it simply N and G as they are full siblings of J? Or is it W’s surviving beneficiaries as he was in line to inherit B’s estate?"

My understanding is that it will depend on the value of the estate.

Also, I would question what happened to the father of J? Was he also still alive when J passed away? If so, then he would have inherited equally as long as he was either married to B when J was born or was named on J's birth certificate.

If neither of those things happened then you can ignore the father unless you do have evidence that he was still alive at the time of J's death. (So, you don't have to go searching for him, but if there is evidence that he was still alive at the time then he would also have inherited).

"J was survived by his mother, B, who died intestate in 2015, but she was survived by her spouse W"

For deaths after 1st Oct 2014 where there was a surviving spouse and children, the spouse was entitled to the ‘personal chattels’ (movable property, but not money) of the deceased and a statutory legacy of £250,000.

If the estate was worth more than that then any excess is then divided equally between the spouse (50%) and the children (50% divided between however many children there are).

So, if B's estate when she died in 2015 was worth less than £250,000 then everything went to W.

If it was worth more than £250k then the first £250k went to W and anything above that is shared with the children N and G (they would each get 25% of the excess).

It all depends on the value of B's estate back in 2015.

Sorry, just to add to the above to explain why I was asking about J's father.

If J's father was still alive then he would have inherited equally with B, so they each get 50% of J's estate.

If J's father then also died intestate without marrying (or having other children) then his estate (including the 50% share of J's estate) will then pass automatically to N and G.

Of course, J's father may have remarried or made a will etc in which case things will be different.

Thank you so much, this is very helpful!

J's father passed away in the 1990s so can be disregarded in this case.

B's estate was worth less than £250k so it all went to W.

It seems bonkers that J's mother's second husband W's beneficiaries are the only ones entitled to claim J's estate, when J has living siblings.

Do you know if a second grant of administration (bonis non) can be used in this situation?

I am wondering if that part in bold below applies, i.e., can J's unclaimed estate be classified as part of his mother B's estate which is still unadministered? And therefore, can B's daughter apply for administration de bonis non and claim J's estate on behalf of her deceased mother B?

From the gov Inheritance Tax Manual website:

A grant of administration de bonis non (sometimes called administratis) is a grant ‘concerning goods not administered’. It is used where, following a grant (IHTM05001), the personal representative (IHTM05012) (PR) dies without completing the administration of the estate.
It is necessary:

• on the death of the sole or last surviving administrator (IHTM05012) where part of the estate is still unadministered

It isn’t J’s estate though. B would have inherited from J so it’s B’s estate. In turn W inherited from his wife B, so his family is simply inheriting W’s estate.

And that’s why you should always make a will.

I agree @titchy!

So given that J’s estate is B’s estate, could this be classed as a part of B’s estate left unadministered, meaning B’s children could apply for a bonis non second grant of administration to administer this estate?

I'm not too clear about the exact events that have happened.

Did B obtain a grant of letters of administration for J's estate?

If she did not then you cannot get a grant de bonis non. You can only do this if B already had a grant and then did not administer the entire estate (eg she did not pay off J's debts and/or did not give the entire estate to herself).

So if, for example, it turned out that J had an extra unknown bank account or life insurance policy etc that was still in his name and this only came to light after B passed away then that is where you would apply for a grant de bonis non.

Since B was the only administrator and has passed away, there would be nobody else to deal with this previously unknown bank account or life insurance policy and so you apply for a grant de bonis non.
.

In contrast, if there was no grant of administration then things are different. So, if B did not get the grant then she could not have dealt with any property or substantial amounts of money held in a bank account by J.

If B did not get a grant of administration then I suppose that you could now apply for a grant of administration for J's estate. But I don't really see what benefit that would be to anybody.

B was entitled to J's estate under the intestacy rules and so everything is supposed to go to her. If you get a grant of administration today, you can't change that, everything still goes to B.

Then, since she died intestate, everything goes to W.

Also, don't forget that certain things, such as a house owned as joint tenants and any joint bank account, will pass automatically to W through the right of survivorship regardless of what any will or intestacy rules say.

Thank you @Another2Cats there is so much useful info there.

Yes my post is not very clear.

Did B obtain a grant of letters of administration for J's estate?

No. J was estranged from his mother B. J’s estate was not administered at all and is bona vacantia.

The bonis non would be for B, in order for her children to claim their brother J’s estate. This is where I’m unclear - can a second grant be obtained for B, on the basis that her estate was administered, but J’s was not administered and should have formed part her estate?

B was entitled to J's estate under the intestacy rules and so everything is supposed to go to her. If you get a grant of administration today, you can't change that, everything still goes to B.

Then, since she died intestate, everything goes to W.

Now that W is deceased, if a bonis non was obtained for B, would the estate be passed to B’s next living heirs (her children), or to W’s heirs?

Thanks for taking the time to engage in my muddled confusion!!

"Now that W is deceased, if a bonis non was obtained for B, would the estate be passed to B’s next living heirs (her children), or to W’s heirs?"

My understanding is that nothing changes. B was alive when J passed away intestate so everything was left to her. Once she passed away intestate then everything was left to W.

The whole bonis non thing only comes in to play if the estate is part administered (eg there has already been a grant of administration for J - which you say didn't happen - and, in any event, it wouldn't alter who the beneficiaries are).

You mentioned that J's father died before J. The only way that things could be different is if B also died before J (or, I think, within 28 days).