Northern Irish law pre 1985 help please!

[BluePyjamas123]

Hi all, any help on this would be appreciated. I was kidnapped by a stranger in a public place while my parent was distracted by one of my other siblings one day in the early 1980s. To cut my story short my parent looked for me, couldn’t find me and reported me missing to police at a nearby police station.

later that same day my kidnapper and I were both found, he hadn’t taken me very far and the person who found us was actually one of his carers. As it was the early1980s there were no mobile phones and in that area there was no nearby public pay phones so the carer kept us both there until police arrived. I was young and didn’t understand how this person knew where he would have taken me, but I now assume that the spot he took me to was a favourite place of his, his carer will likely have reported him missing and possibly informed the police where he might be, hence why the police arrived at some point after the carer found us. I think the police probably realised a missing mentally unstable adult and missing child in the same area have got to be connected as my parent and my siblings arrived with the police.

When the police did arrive, I was given back to my parent and we were told by a police officer that that was that, meaning that nothing more would come of this and he sent us home.

I was maybe 3 years old and I’ve never forgotten the incident. I find myself mulling it over more the older I get. For me it has never been resolved.

The man probably in his early 20s, he didn’t speak at all that I’m aware of and he didn’t lure me away. He casually walked up behind me and simply lifted me up and carried me away. At first I thought I had been lifted up by my parent so I didnt/ couldn’t turn around right away so therefore I didn’t kick and scream. Even when I did realise I didn’t know this man I still don’t remember screaming. I was afraid, I remember feeling some sort of shock and I didn’t know what to do.

i remember him forcing me through a gap in a hedge, sitting down on the ground in the hedge gap and putting me ontop of his legs. He held onto me the entire time and I believe I was in there with him for at least 2 hours just judging by how long my parent said they looked for me, how long it would have taken my parent to get to the police station on foot with 3 young children. Also when my parent arrived at the police station the police took a statement in an interview room rather than at the front desk. Looking back I think they possibly didn’t believe my parent as child kidnappings just didn’t happen in that area back then, in fact I can’t find any reported child kidnappings from that area.

Anyway so at a guess I was in the hedge with my kidnapper for atleast 2 hours, though I had no real sense of time back then and a lot of my memory of him hiding with me in the hedge is sketchy so I could have been in there longer, however I was definitely found on the day that I was taken .

Of my 3 siblings, the only one who remembers the incident is my older brother, the other two have no recollection of it, they are both younger than me and I didn’t expect either of them to remember. My parent is still alive and remembers the incident but has only ever talked about it twice in the past, once to explain to me the man was mentally unstable and the second time was when I was in my twenties and we had a frank discussion about it. My parent, my older brother and me are all in agreement that we remember that my brother wasn’t questioned, I wasn’t questioned, the man wasn’t questioned or arrested and the carer wasn’t questioned.

We all individually remember simply being sent home. I wasn’t sent anywhere by police to be examined for any physical or sexual assault. My parent did not drop the incident, it was the RUC officer who said that’s that. All three of us remember it the same way.

In December 2024 I decided to see if I could see the police file. So I found out I could apply for a subject access request and I applied, I supplied as much information as possible. I’m still waiting for the file, there have been back and forth emails between myself and the PSNI but ultimately I just don’t know how much longer I’ll have to wait.

So anyway I know he was never arrested, it never went to court and basically we never heard from the police or anyone again regarding the matter. In hindsight I would have preferred my parent had pressed for some sort of investigation including having me examined by a dr, but I guess when they got me home there was possible little to no bruising so they would have decided to let it go, and I know my parent was in shock and stressed about it and it’s something they regret not doing so I don’t blame them for just wanting to forget things at the time.

I’ll get to my point. Yes it was such a long time ago, but as I was so young I couldn’t go seeking legal advice back then I didn’t know what that was, so I never knew that the incident should have been reported to the police ombudsman within 12 months of it happening. I also had no idea at the time that I had a 3 year window between 18-21 where I could have taken the case to court. I only discovered all of this when I was in my mid 40s.

I believe the incident should have gone to court at the time. Now I’m not saying that he should definitely have gone to jail, I don’t know what mental health condition he had, I’m not a Dr, but I think had it gone to court there would have at least been tighter restrictions on him and maybe he’d have had better care? and maybe I would have been able to put a lid on it all?

I know his first name and just going by the uniform the carer was wearing I know which hospital trust he was under the care of. I don’t know his surname. I remember what he looked like, I also remember what he was wearing that day. I remember him constantly putting his fingers through my hair and holding me with his other hand.

I know that there was a law change in 1985, but this incident happened before that. I am trying to figure out what the law was in NI in the early 80s regarding child abduction. It’s a minefield and it is very daunting to me.

I have tried looking at other kidnap cases from that time and earlier in NI, but I can only find cases where the victim was murdered and obviously a murder charge doesn’t apply in my case.

I have tried contacting a solicitor about this but they can’t help for two main reasons, 1 being I haven’t yet got access to my police file, and I haven’t got solicitor fees, solicitors in NI don’t do no win no fee cases.

Do any of you mumsnetters know anything about the law regarding crime against children pre 1985? Could someone help me out, help me find the info I’m looking for and help me understand the legal jargon?

I am hoping that I have a case against the PSNI/ RUC for not dealing with the incident thoroughly at the time. Yes I know that the officers will either be retired or deceased and his carer too, I’m also aware that the man might still be alive and might still have mental health issues. Do I want him arrested now? I honestly don’t know, it depends on the circumstances. I won’t enter into any arguments about this btw.

So that is my story and yes it is a weird one.

BlueP

It doesn't sound as though you were physically or sexually harmed. And presumably your research shows that he didn't do anything else along these lines as there were no reports of other abductions/attempted abductions? I'm not sure what you could sue for, the majority of crimes don't make it to court it is up to the police/ prosecution service as to whether someone is charged.
I hope when you get the info you feel more gaps in your memory are closed bur maybe the best thing to do is to try to put a lid on it there, leave it in the past

Ok some things have occurred to me in the last few years that I hadn’t thought of before and I’ll list them here, I should have included these in my original post to better explain myself.

I don’t know if he was from the area, it might be a case of him being treated there rather than be from there so given that is possible I don’t know if he will have previously commited crimes against other kids in other areas. All 3 of us commented on how he didn’t speak at all to our knowledge therefore without hearing an accent we don’t know where he was from.

Even if he was from the area and did something to a child there is no guarantee that the local newspaper either heard about or or were allowed to print about the case(s) at the time.

We only know his first name and he could have moved to another hospital/ care facility after snatching me, he might have died or he could even have moved to another country entirely. Without putting his first name up here he had a fairly common first name, as common as Paul or John. So without any other details we can’t say that I was his only victim. I mean I might have been, I simply don’t know.

With regards to assault, it is possible for a child to have been assaulted with only a finger or something that doesn’t cause bruising. Just because I don’t remember everything that happened in the hours that he had me in the gap in the hedge it doesn’t mean that he definitely didn’t assault me. I believe 100% that I should at least have been sent by police to have been assessed.

Thanks anyway, but I’m definitely asking if any mumsnetters have an understanding of the law in NI at the time. All I understand is that had it gone to court he could have potentially been jailed for up to 10 years just for the kidnapping offence alone, but obviously that will have depended on circumstances. I don’t assume that he would have been jailed for ten years. I do think it should have gone to court though, as it would today.

The hardest part is the not knowing what happened. Our brains are wired to fill the gaps. I'm sorry this happened to you.

How long has the PSNI had your subject access request for? If it's longer than the 1 calender month (it can be extended for a further two months in some cases) I'd follow up with them again and ask for a timeframe for when. You are likely to receive the information or you will escalate it to the ICO within xx working days

While it isn't Troubles related, it may be helpful to reach out to one of the legacy support groups. They will have knowledge on how to navigate the legal system, how the RUC operated back then and how to access records. They may be willing to help.

I Applied for the SAR in early December last year so it’s been over 6 months. They’ve corresponded with me several times between the middle of January until several days ago but they offer no update on a timeframe so I could be waiting a long time.

Also there is no guarantee that they’ll agree to give me the file, this is something else that is affecting me a lot and I believe it is because someone in the organisation now knows the officers messed up badly at the time. For the past 2-3 months they have been saying that my file is awaiting a decision. Now I know that I have a right to see the file so I won’t be accepting a no.

That is a good idea I will contact some legacy support groups. I’m going to contact abuse groups too, just incase they might be able to help.

It might be worth taking a moment to think about what you’re hoping to get out of this process. If you're mainly looking to see what the police recorded about the incident, just keep in mind that the information might be quite limited—especially since no further action was taken. Also, any details about the other person involved (like the perpetrator) will probably be redacted, as that kind of information usually isn’t shared under a subject access request. It's positive the PSNI have confirmed they do have a file. If they refuse to release it definitely appeal the decision with the information commissioners office

If you're thinking about seeking compensation, that can be more complex. You’d need to show that it was in the public interest for the case to be prosecuted, which might be challenging if the person was already known to MH sevices and dealing with serious issues at the time. You’d also need to show how the decision not to prosecute has had a real, negative impact on your life.

I really believe it could be helpful to reach out to one of the legacy support groups. They’re experienced in these matters and could also connect you with counselling services to support you as you work through everything.

This seems to be really bothering you. Have you any idea why this would be? Have you explored with a counsellor why this is bothering you?
I suspect many things pre 1985 were dealt with by a copper having a quiet word with someone regardless of what the actual law was at the time.

Believe me when I say I’ve given the incident a lot of thought over the years and I’m going to be honest and say I really don’t know what I hope to achieve. I went into this last December knowing that I’ll have a fight on my hands trying to get access to the file.

I know they know his name, they will have other info on there like the name of the carer etc.

I have thought of every possibility with regards to the file and I don’t think they’ll redact info, I think they’ll let me wait and hope I’ll lose interest in wanting it. It certainly seems that they are in no rush at this point. They have asked me for my identification not once but twice, the second time was about two months after I had sent my application in. In early replies my file was awaiting a decision, in later replies they were having trouble finding the file, but I reminded them last week that they had stated it was with a decision maker and I asked why have they changed the story.

I have reason to think there is definitely info in there that I don’t know, I think I’ll get it eventually, but I’ll likely have to have support for that to happen, so I’ve been in touch with a couple of prominent NI people to garner support in the past few weeks.

I have thought about the possibility that they’ll redact info, and while I feel that will be problematic for me, at least I’ll have a police file that I can approach a solicitor with, so even a file with redacted info is better than no file at this point.

It has been on my mind a lot more ever since I had my first child. Before that it would only really crop up in my head when there was a missing child on the news or something like that.

Now and then I’d tell a friend it happened and they’d literally laugh at me and tell me I was full of BS and so I would mainly keep it to myself, push it back under the carpet again if you like.

Driving past or going into a similar public place can spark off the memory too.

A few things have lately begun to really bother me. The carer knowing where to find him is making me wonder am I the first kid that he had in the bush, did he do the same thing before and maybe it just went unreported? The police putting 2 and 2 together and then turning up at the hedge with my family somehow knowing I’d be found there.

I’m convinced that they knew he was a risk to the public but they still just let it go. And If he is still alive maybe he could be prevented from doing it again, or doing worse.

Btw the PSNI went from the request being in a queue to the file being with a decision maker to the file not found yet and right now it’s back to the request being queued for a decision maker again as of a few days ago.

Hi Blue Pyjamas.
i am sorry this happened to you, it sounds very disturbing. I am a trauma therapist and I would recommend speaking to your GP about a referral to your local psychology team, so that you can talk and process your concerns about this life event. In order for a referral to be made, there would need to be a present impact on psychological functioning and ongoing levels of distress. The “what ifs” can be a significant source of distress. You have articulated concerns about “What if I was abused?”, “What if other children were impacted?”, “what if the police did not do their job properly?”
I hope you get the police file soon, and it provides some useful information. You should prepare yourself for the possibility that it may not provide anything helpful to your concerns and consider how this may impact you?
it is very normal to view challenging events from childhood differently once we become parents. You can see how vulnerable a child is, and that can sometimes trigger difficult thoughts about our own vulnerability in childhood.
You describe the abductor as having a carer. It is impossible to say of course, but the individual may have had a learning disability and lacked capacity. Would the file have this information, I have no idea. A therapist could support you with exploring your thought and emotions about this life event and also provide support with learning to live alongside it, if no further useful information is forthcoming.
i wish you all the best.

The person who found us was in charge of his care at the time. I have known this for a couple of decades now. The person was in uniform and was in charge of his care when the man went missing. This is why I think the file should contain info about him, I hope anyway.

My parent informed me that the man and atleast 2 carers were out for a day trip when he managed to get away from them and come and take me. Until recently years I assumed that he couldn’t speak as he didn’t talk at all to our knowledge, but now I’m not convinced.

All three of us remember him not speaking. This points to him having a mental health issue, but I’ve got a niggling thought this past few years that there is a chance he might have been in control of what he was doing. I just don’t know to be honest.

Sorry for my terrible typing guys, I can spell I just edit my text and forget to alter other words to fit the edits 😃