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Train fine

25 replies

Pinkcupcake99 · 12/05/2025 23:34

My ds, first year at uni was coming home at the end of last year when he was stopped by ticket inspector, he had a screen shot of his ticket, but not his railcard. He had purchased both that morning, but first time out etc he didn’t think about the railcard & had no signal/couldn’t connect to train wifi. He panicked & told the inspector he had forgotten it. Inspector took his details and that was that.
Four months later a letter arrived here, which turns out to be from the train company. He didn’t get it immediately (as he was away at uni!!) but emailed them back straight away about it - they asked for extenuating circumstance so he sent the above, along with reference number of his valid railcard
Cut to today, I am now opening his post & it’s from the courts saying he never responded so they intend to prosecute, how does he want to plead/does he want to turn up to court.
He/we are suitably stunned. Given how long the last reply took he never chased it up - he emailed seven weeks ago. This is also asking for mitigating circumstance - we are not really sure what to do. All phone numbers are automated or just ring out. He is studying law and is terrified he may end up with a criminal record.
Anyone got any ideas how this may pan out/what would be the next best course of action? We have copies of the email he sent/rail card etc, just don’t know what to do for the best

OP posts:
xmasdealhunter · 13/05/2025 00:32

Call the rail omnibusman. I don't think that they'll be able to directly help you, but they should be able to give you the direct contact details of someone you can speak to that can. Contact Us - Rail Ombudsman

Contact Us - Rail Ombudsman

rail ombudsman customer complaints

https://www.railombudsman.org/contact-us/

Oystersandchampagne · 13/05/2025 00:41

My son had the same experience. My advice is that your son pleads guilty and expresses his remorse . I know it sounds crazy but it really does work regardless of guilt. I looked at a train line forum and that was the advice from the nerds …best advice ever .
He got a reply within 24 hours and we could all relax.

spoonbillstretford · 13/05/2025 00:47

Tell them you did reply and quote the date and time of the email. He shouldn't be prosecuted for buying a cheaper ticket with a railcard if he had a valid railcard at the time. He would just be charged with failing to provide the railcard at the time, which is surely just a fine, not a criminal record. He paid the correct fare for the journey,

Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 02:49

@Oystersandchampagne was that actually to a court charge? The letter we have says he has 21 days to enter a ‘plea’ with a form to complete with mitigating circumstance? The option of appearing in person in court completely freaked him (and me).

@xmasdealhunter It all seems like such a minefield and not being able to actually speak to a human being is ridiculous. When he got that first letter we spent ages on the phone going round in circles with automated systems that kept telling us how they were ‘there to help’ then cut us off!

@spoonbillstretford - he has forwarded on a copy of the email so I was going to print it out and attach it. There was some other stuff going on at uni at the time that helped ‘distracted’ him before he left, I was going to include that too.

Thanks all, obviously this is giving me sleepless nights, just all a bit scary, alien territory. So it seems that essentially it would be best to plead guilty and then beg?

OP posts:
ClearHoldBuild · 13/05/2025 03:12

he had a screen shot of his ticket, but not his railcard. He had purchased both that morning, but first time out etc he didn’t think about the railcard & had no signal/couldn’t connect to train wifi.

I understand you want to help him sort this but if he had a screenshot he wouldn’t need to connect to WiFi, same for the railcard app. If he had requested a physical card as opposed to using the app then he wouldn’t be entitled to the discount until he received the card. He’s not telling you the truth like he lied to the ticket officer. He needs to start telling the truth and deal with the consequences of his actions not you, else he won’t learn anything.

Realist2022 · 13/05/2025 04:51

@ClearHoldBuild Most railcards have a moving ‘hologram’ on them so you can’t screenshot them and have them accepted. Sounds like an error in judgement but no need to assume he was lying.

@Pinkcupcake99 First step is to establish the consequences of his options and as quickly as possible. My belief is this would be civil and not criminal and he’d still be able to be practise law but I am no expert and hopefully someone will be along to confirm soon. If that is the case, plead guilty, pay the fine and move forward.

Good luck with it all. Mistakes happen.

Soontobe60 · 13/05/2025 06:13

I’m a bit confused here. If your DS purchased the railcard and the train ticket that morning, he would have had either a physical railcard (if purchased at a train station) or a digital download. If he opted for ordering a card online without choosing a digital download he would not have been able to use the card until he actually received it anyway.
If he did choose the digital download option - which is most likely - then he would have had an email with the relevant access code and instructions on how to download it. He would not have needed wifi to show an email that had already been read.
Reading between the lines here, it’s more likely that he got caught travelling on an invalid ticket because he didn’t have a railcard at the point of purchase, panicked and lied to the ticket inspector then immediately bought the railcard hoping to avoid a fine.
If I am jumping to the wrong conclusion though, then he needs to have clear evidence of the times he purchased the ticket and the railcard to prove he bought the card before the ticket!

eurochick · 13/05/2025 06:51

Oystersandchampagne · 13/05/2025 00:41

My son had the same experience. My advice is that your son pleads guilty and expresses his remorse . I know it sounds crazy but it really does work regardless of guilt. I looked at a train line forum and that was the advice from the nerds …best advice ever .
He got a reply within 24 hours and we could all relax.

Be careful with this for a trainee lawyer. It is considered a dishonesty offence and could affect his admission to the roll. If he can’t get this sorted it would be worth engaging a good solicitor as his future career could depend on the outcome.

CuriousGeorge80 · 13/05/2025 07:03

Send a copy of the receipt showing he had already purchased the rail card at the time he got the ticket. Also attach the email response.

What is the actual wording of the charge?

Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 07:59

@Realist2022 I think this is what he needs to do, pay up and move on. Just trying to establish the best way to go about this. Ultimately he was unable to produce the railcard when asked, so I guess technically he is guilty. It’s just the future implications for him that worry me. He was an idiot, but also just a teen out in the world for the first time. I can guarantee he’s learnt from this and yes, we all make mistakes. Thanks for replying.

OP posts:
PansyPottering · 13/05/2025 08:11

I also don’t understand how he didn’t have the railcard if he’d just bought it that day. Wasn’t it digital?

Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 08:25

@ClearHoldBuild harsh. I have no reason to think he’s suddenly started lying. He had a rough start to uni and was definitely not functioning at his best. He is usually brutally honest with me - some of the things he’s told me over the years - nothing illegal, just nothing I would have ever spoken to my parents about. Either way, we just need to figure out the best way forward now. If that’s to plead guilty as he couldn’t produce that railcard, then fine, he will just have to find a way to pay the fine from his Saturday job. It’s just the implication of that, will he end up with a criminal record from that?
@CuriousGeorge80 the charge is ‘not having a valid ticket entitling travel’. Further details state it was the inability to produce the railcard that is the issue. He just panicked and told him he had ‘forgotten’ it

OP posts:
Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 08:30

Both ticket and railcard were digital. He screenshot the ticket & then disabled all Apps/location services and services. He was basically ‘hiding’ from someone - like I say, he had a rough start to uni. He was able to produce the screenshot of the ticket, but not the railcard & couldn’t connect to his App, panicked and told them he had forgotten it.
definitely an idiot, but not really thinking straight at that point. It was an impulsive run home and he just didn’t think.

OP posts:
TheOccupier · 13/05/2025 08:33

If the charge is not having a valid ticket/railcard (rather than not producing one) and he can prove he did, maybe he should go to court and defend himself? Can you afford to consult a solicitor?

tripleginandtonic · 13/05/2025 08:36

Well he is guilty, no matter what the reasons, so just pay up. I'd be very surprised if that stopped him from having a career in law, it was a mistake and mistakes happen.

Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 08:58

@tripleginandtonic - I’m not disputing the fact he failed to produce the railcard, so technically yes, guilty as charged. However he did have one. I’m just trying to establish the best way forward - plead guilty, pay the fine, what are the future consequences of that?
Or, not guilty, go with mitigating factors that caused him to ‘forget’ it (there was more going on that cause him to leave that I haven’t mentioned here) and see what happens? What are the future implications of having a criminal record for something so stupid?

OP posts:
Pinkcupcake99 · 13/05/2025 09:06

@TheOccupier I don’t think going to court is really an option - his MH is fragile, don’t think he could do it. Couldn’t afford a solicitor. Just need to get this sorted with the least potential future damage. We have had a shitty few years as a family, really thought we’d turned a corner when he went back after Christmas.

OP posts:
Elleherd · 14/05/2025 10:13

I'm not as erudite as most here, so please excuse the long post.

IANAL but have 'supported' (done it for them) someone in reversing their criminal record for not having a student railcard when buying a student ticket. Their life was seriously impacted and damaged by it being on their DBS.
It's taken two years, and the railway company itself, never once spoke to them. (or me) It's intentional.

Honestly, MH or no MH, if he did have an appropriate railcard when he brought the ticket, he'd be crazy to plead guilty, and crazy to not go to court and defend his clean legal status.
Do make sure this is 100% factual and there's no situation where the railcard was not yet valid? (young people sometimes tell parents silly lies not realizing consequences, to cover embarrassment) then forget MN attitudes about abandoning offspring on their 18th, and go with him.

Pleading guilty will result in a fine and far more importantly him receiving a criminal record which will stay on an enhanced DBS for 11years (and on record for 100 years) which can affect his career prospects, travel, and immigration status.
In a legal (or caring) career, having a criminal record is a really bad start to life and normally reserved to mark out a specific class as less worthy of trustworthy employment. You/he need to kick back.

He's being charged under railway byelaws which is why people think they have no teeth or consequences.
They are very wrong, and confusing them with fixed fare penalties under bylaws, where you pay a direct fine and no criminal record if paid.
Then government brought in single justice procedures, which changed everything in reality, raising both revenue and criminal conviction rates.

The byelaws he's charged under are backed by legislation, and he's being prosecuted in the magistrates' court for what has moved on from 'give us proof or money and we'll leave you alone', to now an 'actual criminal offense', and is about to get a criminal conviction if you/he don't fight against it.

If unlucky he can expect one/two wasted days turning up for 'case management' hearings - if lucky it could get dismissed at that point or sent back for reconsideration of either dismissal, or a fine, but no conviction. If not, then a further day in court where he answers to the charges, which if he has used a legitimate railcard to purchase his ticket, he will walk out with dismissed as not guilty as charged, and it ends there.

He's studying law, he needs to see this as a useful experience of challenging how law works and doesn't, and the opportunity to be around those being subjected to it, rightly or wrongly, and the hopefully soon to be discredited often flawed 'single justice procedures.' A bit of direct experience could be part of a future essay for him.

Doubt he's being done for 'failure to produce the railcard' and actual charge is traveling / attempting to travel without previously paying the fare (correct fare in his case because he couldn't show entitlement to a student railcard discount) and or having intent to avoid payment of the fare or entering the transport system without a valid ticket to travel. He's a law student, make him do the homework on the actual charges!

Your Ds can do this, and if needs be, he can ask for his mum to speak for him. (Entirely up to the magistrates, but they generally don't like dealing only with a confused, tearful, breaking young person, if there's a calm competent adult with them who can focus on the law, as well as circumstance.)

If it's Cross Country Investigations the train company has outsourced SJP to, they're notably poor at paperwork and understanding that offenses must be correctly charged.

I'm not a lawyer or legally trained, just court experienced from coming from a difficult background, but frankly ran rings round them using common sense and breaking down whether the charge was appropriate for the alleged offense.
Law's a factual thing, even if it can be open to interpretation. Facts, are facts.

Ten to one he's being done for traveling / attempting to travel without previously paying his fare- which he's not guilty of, or having intent to avoid payment of his fare- also not guilty of, and he has the evidence to prove it. (assuming the railcard valid for the time and day) So why mess up life by pleading guilty?

(He should have sent a picture of the railcard btw, not just the number.
Always send maximum evidence, and easily understood and dealable with by whoever's on the lowest pay grade, not what requires additional / more skilled work.)

Pinkcupcake99 · 15/05/2025 12:48

@Elleherd thank-you for your post, you are spot on. That is the specific wording and yes, logically it is incorrect as he wasn’t travelling without paying/paying incorrect amount.
He/we had done a lot of searching and going against everything that seems right, it’s all been returned, pled guilty & added mitigation. Also contracted train company and asked, given circumstance if they would consider dropping charges, the fact that he did respond to their initial letter seems to be where this took a turn. Just waiting now.
We found conflicting information regarding the implications of all this & quite frankly, you’ve just freaked me out all over again!! However, it’s done now and we will just have to wait and see.
I don’t think there is any way he could cope with going to court. He has had a shitty few years and was just beginning to turn a corner. I have always told him things will get better, so we will just have to deal with whatever comes next and hope for the best. At least no one died.
@eurochick thanks for the link. Obvious difference, this is a one off stupid mistake, she was doing it on a repeated basis, but point taken. I really don’t know how some people seem to be able to do these things without a second thought. The last few days have been so stressful for both of us, if nothing else we know we are not built for a life of crime!

OP posts:
TheHerboriste · 15/05/2025 12:52

Wouldn’t there be record on his bank statement of when the card was purchased?

Pinkcupcake99 · 15/05/2025 13:35

@TheHerboriste yes. We have sent copies of bank statements/current rail card/initial email response (that they state they didn’t receive)/letters from uni that support reasons for his sudden departure & MH at the time.
Just have to wait and see now - ultimately someone will come along and state that he still ‘failed to produce’ the card that supported the reduced price ticket, so 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
Elleherd · 16/05/2025 10:23

Sorry to have re-freaked you out! And I'm sorry things are so difficult.

If he ends up with a criminal conviction for this, then do keep a weather eye on news around single justice procedures.
Quite a few are kicking off to have them reviewed as wrongly criminalizing ordinary people making genuine mistakes, and a reasonable number of others as well as the person I helped have also had their records expunged.
They may eventually roll it all back, but ime, only those who then actively apply to have their records changed, will have it removed from them.

(for general info only: I wrongly said a conviction remains on record for 100 years, the correct info is it is stored on the PNC until the person turns 100.)

Fingers crossed and hope it all goes well for him.

Pinkcupcake99 · 20/06/2025 19:24

Hi, just thought I’d do a quick update - we have now heard from the train company and having reviewed all the info sent they have dropped the charges & informed the courts they will not be proceeding.
It should be a relief, however he was fleeing having been beaten up by his idiot boyfriend. The latter has turned out to be a vindictive little shit who has now also reported him to the police for assault. Having been questioned at the local station here, the police were unsure how the charges were ever brought. He had a scratch to his arm, mine was black and blue. Logged with GP at the time & many pics taken. So, now we are just waiting for them to sort out the paperwork/NFA. Train ticket kinda took a back seat, but, info about asking for the charges to be dropped may be useful to someone else.
Thanks for all the help here, it really did make me feel less lonely in all this. x

OP posts:
Livpool · 20/06/2025 20:06

Your poor son OP - glad things are getting sorted

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