Electrical certificate that’s not a certificate. (Take electrician to court?)

[Stuffedbysparky]

Wondering if anyone can help me decide on what to do.

during COVID my relative had two bedsit flats that had to be rewired to conform to electrical EICR regulations. When the work was completed a certificate was issued and has to be re certified every five years.

I’ve had a different electrician come in today to fix a broken heater and he’s told me the whole electrics for the bedsit are a total joke, wouldn’t pass testing twenty years ago, let alone fours years ago when the work was done.

I spoke to elderly relative about it and he forwarded me the electricians certificate from when the work was done. The emails clearly states it’s a certificate, should be kept, not lost etc, proof of work etc etc. The name of the PDF file is EICR_REF123abcetc.PDF

HOWEVER, today’s electrician having seen this email has told me it’s not a certificate, and the wording at the top the certificate when the PDF is opened says Electrical Installation Condition Report, ie. Report, which I think I understand as what needed to be done in order to bring the flats electrics up to EICR regulations, ie not a sodding certificate.

relative paid thousands for this work to be done. Not quite sure of the status of the work, probably illegal, certificate not valid as basically doesn’t exist, and the actual work is more than sub standard.

I’m not sure electrician is trading but is on Companies House on HMRC as LTD company.

relative said he was a new startup business at the time, online traders website say he’s Part P

Its obvious the bedsits are going to have be rewired or part rewired, today’s electrician said he’s not interested in the job.

so my questions is

has the electrician who issued the certificate committed fraud and is it worth perusing this with a solicitor? (Or suck it up as bad luck and pay for it to be done again).

thanks in advance.

The Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) document you have is the one that demonstrates that the electrical system meets the required standards. There's no separate "certificate", it's just the EICR.

You've got the original electrician saying that the electrical installation was to standard, and the new one who says it wasn't. If I were you I'd consider getting a third opinion as a tie-breaker and take it from there. There are a couple of electrical certification bodies and most reputable electricians belong to one or the other. One's called NICEIC and the other is NAPIT. If the dodgy electrician is a member of either of those you could see if they'll offer any advice.

Thank you. Very helpful!
he is NAPIT

When I was a landlord I discovered that electricians offered to complete EICRs to different levels (with the associated £££ !)

There was a minimum standard which had to be reached in order to rent out a property which ran to a few hundred quid (depending on if there was much work to be done to deal with any issues). Then there were the electricians who offered to bring the electrics up to 'gold standard' - improving things beyond the minimum. Of course this mean that they could then charge for all sorts of improvement work!

To be honest I always worry more about tradesmen who slate the work of others, especially one who doesn't seem to understand that an EICR is a report, not a certificate!
It's possible the previous EICR was perfectly fine and he is just touting for business.
Standards change all the time too. The standards for new builds are different to what was acceptable 20 years ago and things don't always have to be updated.

Definitely get another opinion.

So it would seem having delved further into it that the documentation my relative has is a certificate but the actual works are awfully shoddy.
thanks again @GasperyJacquesRoberts for your information

I will take it up with NAPIT

Thanks @Legacy after further investigations of paperwork (and my own NICEIC paperwork) and your descriptions I can see exactly why I thought what I did.

My gold standard electrician is NICEIC and for some reason reports are called certificates ( was looking at my property ones), my shoddy one is a Napit and ‘certificates’ are called reports

although it’s taken me to this evening to realise that EICR stands for electrical installation condition report as per @GasperyJacquesRoberts post.

so one headache solved but have decided to get a third electrician to take a look at the installation as suggested because I can visibly see my gold standard electrician work is far superior to what’s in relatives place.

thanks all

OP - are you/ your relative planning to rent out the bedsits again, or are you getting them ready to sell?
You don't need an EICR to sell a house, although having one will obviously give buyers peace of mind.
I actually sold my house with an EICR which had expired a few months earlier. It was recent enough for the buyer not to be concerned.

If you're renting again then obviously you will need to update them to ensure safety, but do be careful you're not being conned into spending on unnecessary upgrades. In my opinion electricians are some of the worst for the sharp sucking-in of breath, before saying something like 'it needs completely rewiring..'

One electrician did exactly that to me, claiming that there were all sorts of connections and switches and earth-bonding missing until I removed the plinth from under the kitchen cabinets and pointed out that it was there!

They will often also recommend upgrading to current 'best practice' (e.g. changing all light fittings) but it doesn't necessarily mean that what is there is unsafe - it might just be less efficient - and 'best practice' will likely change again in a couple of years... so keep your wits about you!

An EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate) should have been issued once the work was carried out. An EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) is purely to test an existing installation and comment on if it is in satisfactory condition against current BS7671 Regulations.

A full or part rewire (or adding in any new circuit) or upgrading a consumer unit should always have an EIC issued by the electrician carrying out the works. This should include test results for 100% of the works carried out as well as any departures from regulations, but in most cases any works should completely comply with current regs. Sounds like a cowboy.

I'm an electrician OP - the problem you will have is that the wiring regulations are not law, they are guidance of best practice, they give model certificates for minor works, installation and EICR, however you can make up your own certificate, with your own wording so long as the relevant testing has been done and recorded.

NICEIC and NAPIT are both private companies that offer certification and Part P compliance services to their members, there is no requirement to be a member of either (I am not, as work mainly in schools and hospitals and have no need of their services) - both have their own models of certificate, you can buy non branded certificate pads from electrical wholesalers or design your own or use the free template provided in the back of the regs book.

So long as the correct tests have been carried out and the details recorded, the certificate or report is valid - HOWEVER - part P is an entirely separate certificate.

The law makes the PROPERTY OWNER liable for failing to get Part P certification, its bonkers in a way, but that's how it is.

In the normal course of events, say you had a re-wire you would have an EIC for that, and then periodic EICRs on a rented property.

As an addendum to my previous, it's worth noting too that you don't need any particular qualification to undertake electrical work or certify it. The regs require you to be "competent"

Lets say Dave the DIYer is good with wiring, hires a calibrated test unit to test his work, completes his part P paperwork with building control, he can buy a certificate pad, fill in the required boxes, sign at the bottom and that certificate would be as valid as any I can issue as a qualified spark with 20 years on the tools.

I would certainly agree with getting a separate opinion. Unfortunately there are cowboys who belong to the NICEIC & NAPIT as well as those who don't.

Yesterday I was wading through an EICR on a secondary school, over 100 pages of it, carried out by a well known firm, the insulation resistance, earth loop and RCD operation time was the same for every single circuit across 56 distribution boards, over 1000 circuits, all giving the same result - its a miracle of science, all these different lengths of different sized copper wire having the same resistance - obviously I should have paid more attention in Physics!

OP assuming you had major work done, you should have had an EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate) a Part P certificate, this is separate and will come from either NICEIC, NAPIT or LABC depending on how the electrician submitted it.

The EICR is, as you suggest a report on the condition of an existing installation, it isn't an installation certificate - the main issue is the Part P certificate if you come to sell. Your LABC office can organise having "regularisation" done, which involves their chosen contractor re-inspecting the work and certifying it - but they have the option then to say, no, we are not happy, x & y need re-doing.

But the law makes the home owner liable for not having the correct paperwork in place - you could take action against the contractor, but that would require a contract being in place stating that was what they were going to do.