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Being taken to court by FIL for access to children

25 replies

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 07:49

Hiya, I’m looking for some guidance from anyone who has knowledge or experience in going to court, even better if it’s by a ‘grandparent’. I was advised to move this over to this forum instead of the original forum I had this on so apologies if you’ve come across my post before!
my father in law is taking myself and my partner to court for access to our children, the first court case date is 03/01/25 and it’s a joint permissions/directions case. I have no idea if that’s normal to have the two joint or not, but what can we expect from the first hearing? The oldest child is mine from a previous relationship and the youngest is related to him. The oldest child’s biological dad has been left off the application despite him being an active parent, I presume that this is something we can get fixed at the first hearing if it goes ahead?
my partner cut his dad off end of last year as he had spent his entire life being abused by that man and when his dad was incredibly rude and disrespectful toward me for the millionth time he lost his composure and told him he was cutting contact, and that seeing the kids would be done by me, in public but that if he did it again he’d be losing the kids too. I put up with him until the beginning of this year and then had enough and stopped contact too. We have spent this entire year working on our relationship because his dad caused us a lot of problems and we are finally in a good place.
the last time the kids saw him they were 2 and 4, by the time we have our first hearing it’ll be a month short of an entire year since we had seen him. He spent the previous year studying abroad and we didn’t have a close relationship with him because my partner didn’t like being around him and he was very toxic toward us, so the kids never had a good relationship with him.
he ignored many boundaries put in place, he put the kids health at risk, he emotionally manipulated my kids with the whole ‘oh if you don’t give me attention I’ll be sad’, would invade their personal space, was very emotionally abusive towards myself and my partner, he’s done some very questionable things (following into a private room to watch the baby get their nappy changed, we’ve found pictures of my partner at a similar age to the oldest completely naked and forward facing in the shower etc), he was emotionally incestious toward my partner and his brother growing up (my partner worse than his brother), has tried to put wedges in my relationship with my partner, threatened my partner by saying if he didn’t reply by X date then he’d turn up at my home and then on X date my car had its mirror kicked in and smashed (no proof it was him because my SD card was in the home overnight but very coincidental) just to name a few things.
the man is also applying for a name change and I presume it’s only for the youngest, he tried to convince my partner after birth to register them behind my back so the child had his surname, despite us already agreeing the child would take mine. He wants the child’s birth certificate, he wants the child to be taken to be registered under his nationalities and even tried to suggest getting the oldest registered under one of them through my relationship with my partner (not married). He’s completely delusional obviously but it’s still really worrying me that the court will give him access despite him being very obviously unstable just because he’s a grandparent.
we are hoping that with all of our reasons, the magistrates will tell him to walk back out the door, but we are concerned we’re opening a door for cafcass and social services and months/years of draining court visits. Our concerns can be seen as alarming and he’s also claimed abuse to him by cutting him off and arguing with him and potentially to the girls because we have mental health history (my partners mental health only suffers when his dad is degrading him daily, which hasn’t happened for well over a year, and mine was in my teenage years but I’m absolutely fine now).
his dad has used his application as a smear campaign against me, praying for our relationship to end so his son comes back to him, etc etc. we also have messages he sent to my partners mum saying that he will cancel the case if my partner gives him a real reason as to why contact stopped (despite being given loads by both of us), and then said ‘but he won’t because there is no reason except for the fact that OP doesn’t want him talking to me’ so he is in his own world about all of this. He also is under the impression that 1- my partner isn’t on the youngest child’s birth certificate and 2- that he will be seeing my child’s birth certificate during the case.
we don’t know what to expect, but he’s definitely got some issues that need addressing. So if anyone could help me make sense of this, give me some advice or pointers, lay out the process etc I’d be very grateful! And sorry if this makes absolutely no sense, I tried to fit in as many points as possible without actually giving away my identity incase this ever gets back to him!
thank you in advance x

OP posts:
JollyHam · 18/12/2024 07:59

Are you in the UK? As far as I know (I looked into this last year for personal reasons), grandparents have no rights in England at least.

Frangywangywoowah · 18/12/2024 08:02

JollyHam · 18/12/2024 07:59

Are you in the UK? As far as I know (I looked into this last year for personal reasons), grandparents have no rights in England at least.

Whilst they don't have rights they can ask the Court for permission to apply to court for a Section 8 Order which is what he is doing...so he has to get over that 1st hurdle whereas if it were a parent they'd just apply directly.

TiramisuCheesecake · 18/12/2024 08:05

Agree with the above and really surprised it's got as far as court! Why does he think he would ever have the right to decide your child's name?

Atwhatpointdo · 18/12/2024 08:06

Do you have any evidence of his behaviour? Photos / messages / etc. keep them!

He sounds awful and it sounds like you did the right thing.

How does he come across in person? Batty? Charming? Do you live anywhere near him?

Swissrollover · 18/12/2024 08:06

Good luck, hopefully he has no.case. While there seems to be a lot of questionable behaviour, it really wasn't unusual to have the odd naked pictures of your own children - in the bath, at the beach, etc. We are just a lot more aware now, especially in the digital age.

WhitstablePearl · 18/12/2024 08:06

You have mentioned nationality; what nationality is FIL?

And is he divorced from MIL?

Cerialkiller · 18/12/2024 08:10

If what you say is true then he hasn't got a chance in hell. There's no such thing as grandparents right. The only case he might have is if he had a consistent regular relationship with the children to the extent that removing that relationship would be damaging to the child. E.g. a regular childcare arrangement. It sounds like this isn't the case.

He has no influence over the name.

If fil expresses even half of what you have spoken about then the court will think he's utterly unhinged. They don't take kindly to people using the courts to make personal insults and air grievances that aren't pertinent to the case at hand.

I don't think that you have anything to worry about with a court case but obviously it can still be stressful.

I would try to have a lovely Christmas but then knuckle down with protecting your and your children from him long term. See a solicitor about the possibility of getting a non molestation order at the same time as the court case using fil statement and evidence of threats etc.

Get a ring doorbell and secure your property. Communicate with school/nursery about the potential threat that fil poses so they can protect the children. If fil has made threats then contact the non emergency police number to log them. Tell them there is a risk of false reports to social services (if you think this is the case).

Good luck you've done so well cutting him out of your lives.

Geneticsbunny · 18/12/2024 08:12

What does emotionally incestuous mean?

user13842 · 18/12/2024 08:30

In the first hearing, the court will consider your FILs case and decide whether he has a case to be heard and, if so, will grant permission for the application to continue (or not). If permission is granted, they will then set directions for future hearings and submission of evidence etc.

I would advise you seek legal advice or representation, if possible, for the first hearing. As far as I’m aware grandparents getting rights from the court over and above parents wishes is rare in the UK but I would still want legal advice. I’m not overly familiar with the family court process but in my line of work (public law) our legal reps would likely be making submissions ourselves against the application for the first hearing that the court would consider in their decision whether it should proceed.

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 10:56

JollyHam · 18/12/2024 07:59

Are you in the UK? As far as I know (I looked into this last year for personal reasons), grandparents have no rights in England at least.

Yes I’m in the uk, they’ve got no automatic rights but they can apply and that’s what he’s doing

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 10:59

TiramisuCheesecake · 18/12/2024 08:05

Agree with the above and really surprised it's got as far as court! Why does he think he would ever have the right to decide your child's name?

Yeah I’m surprised they didn’t reject his application the second it came through because after I read it I could only laugh at it! I wish I knew why he thinks he has the right to decide their name, but he’s making a huge issue over it!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 11:18

Atwhatpointdo · 18/12/2024 08:06

Do you have any evidence of his behaviour? Photos / messages / etc. keep them!

He sounds awful and it sounds like you did the right thing.

How does he come across in person? Batty? Charming? Do you live anywhere near him?

I’ve got all messages with him and I, including all of our arguments and me having to tell him he’s acting inappropriately or is being too harsh on his two sons. My partner deleted everything after stoping contact but did keep everything from Christmas/new year onwards.

he definitely isn’t a nice person!

it depends who you ask and who he’s around, when I first met him I thought he was so lovely and was such a caring father, but as I got to know him I noticed he was a bit erratic. He was told in university by training psychologists that he shows signs of ADHD and now makes that his entire personality.

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 11:20

Swissrollover · 18/12/2024 08:06

Good luck, hopefully he has no.case. While there seems to be a lot of questionable behaviour, it really wasn't unusual to have the odd naked pictures of your own children - in the bath, at the beach, etc. We are just a lot more aware now, especially in the digital age.

I hope so too. And yes I know it was more normal to have pictures of your child in the bath/at the beach etc, but to me it just feels so strange that he took a disposable camera into a shower to take pictures of his son where he’s not even covered by bubbles! But of course I’m aware it wasn’t as frowned upon before recent years.

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 11:23

WhitstablePearl · 18/12/2024 08:06

You have mentioned nationality; what nationality is FIL?

And is he divorced from MIL?

Born and raised in South America but he’s here as a eu national.

him and MIL were never married and they split when my partner was a toddler.

OP posts:
Stormyweatheroutthere · 18/12/2024 11:26

Keep your meeting with your solicitor factual. Print off conversations and highlight anything you feel is very relevant.. Practice deep breathing so you can keep your composure in court... Don't be afraid to ask for water... My exh had everyone fooled until he lost his cool... I never did despite how I was screaming inside... Your fil has to prove he had a long term (2+years) of a meaningful relationship where he regularly had unsupervised contact with the dc.. Either had he lived with them or was a child care provider whilst you both worked... 'Children of the family' is a big deal so he was probably advised to add on your dc...

Donkeyfromshrek · 18/12/2024 11:28

I'd be inclined to write down everything that has lead to you stopping contact if you haven't already. Write it as a timeline and make a note of where you have messages or anything else that backs up what you are saying. It doesn't sound like he has any chance but you don't want to be in a position where you are nervous and forget things.

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 11:53

Cerialkiller · 18/12/2024 08:10

If what you say is true then he hasn't got a chance in hell. There's no such thing as grandparents right. The only case he might have is if he had a consistent regular relationship with the children to the extent that removing that relationship would be damaging to the child. E.g. a regular childcare arrangement. It sounds like this isn't the case.

He has no influence over the name.

If fil expresses even half of what you have spoken about then the court will think he's utterly unhinged. They don't take kindly to people using the courts to make personal insults and air grievances that aren't pertinent to the case at hand.

I don't think that you have anything to worry about with a court case but obviously it can still be stressful.

I would try to have a lovely Christmas but then knuckle down with protecting your and your children from him long term. See a solicitor about the possibility of getting a non molestation order at the same time as the court case using fil statement and evidence of threats etc.

Get a ring doorbell and secure your property. Communicate with school/nursery about the potential threat that fil poses so they can protect the children. If fil has made threats then contact the non emergency police number to log them. Tell them there is a risk of false reports to social services (if you think this is the case).

Good luck you've done so well cutting him out of your lives.

Yeah it’s not the case, he never had unsupervised contact with the kids, even in my home doors were always left open, he’s never been allowed to take them for days out and have never spent a night with him. My kids weren’t comfortable with him and took at least an hour to warm up to him (despite being happy to go to other adults) and my youngest would run from him and cry whilst clinging to a parent pretty much the entire visit!

I didn’t think he’d be able to have a say in my child’s name, especially as they’re 3 years old and us parents decided the name before the child was born! But that obviously isn’t getting into his head.

well a lot of his application is more an ‘anti OP’ campaign than anything to do with the children, he just throws the children in every so often. I’m hoping the courts will realise he’s unhinged but you never know.

our paperwork is due right before Christmas so we plan to get it out the way and then enjoy our Christmas, but thank you. We have both separately requested a non molestation order in our counter applications!

thank you for all the advice and kind words!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 12:00

Geneticsbunny · 18/12/2024 08:12

What does emotionally incestuous mean?

It’s where the adult views the child as an emotional partner, so expecting the child to be there for the adult emotionally, discusses certain things like sex in an appropriate manner with the child, jealous of the child’s relationship/s, disrespects child’s boundaries, expects compliments and/or praise from the child, makes comments about child’s body/development, feel like they have the right to comment on or touch the child’s body etc. it sounds a lot worse than it is but there’s no physical sexual abuse involved

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 12:09

user13842 · 18/12/2024 08:30

In the first hearing, the court will consider your FILs case and decide whether he has a case to be heard and, if so, will grant permission for the application to continue (or not). If permission is granted, they will then set directions for future hearings and submission of evidence etc.

I would advise you seek legal advice or representation, if possible, for the first hearing. As far as I’m aware grandparents getting rights from the court over and above parents wishes is rare in the UK but I would still want legal advice. I’m not overly familiar with the family court process but in my line of work (public law) our legal reps would likely be making submissions ourselves against the application for the first hearing that the court would consider in their decision whether it should proceed.

We’ve been requested to submit witness statements, I presume this is also a form of evidence submission? And do you know if I’d be able to request my oldest child’s dad be involved in future hearings if it goes past the permissions hearing,

I’ve had bits of advice here and there but we don’t really have any disposable income at the moment due to our youngests birthday and Christmas. We are letting it be known we oppose the application, but I presume that’s enough and I don’t need to file a position statement or anything seeing as we weren’t asked to?

thanks for your advice, it’s much appreciated!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 12:14

Stormyweatheroutthere · 18/12/2024 11:26

Keep your meeting with your solicitor factual. Print off conversations and highlight anything you feel is very relevant.. Practice deep breathing so you can keep your composure in court... Don't be afraid to ask for water... My exh had everyone fooled until he lost his cool... I never did despite how I was screaming inside... Your fil has to prove he had a long term (2+years) of a meaningful relationship where he regularly had unsupervised contact with the dc.. Either had he lived with them or was a child care provider whilst you both worked... 'Children of the family' is a big deal so he was probably advised to add on your dc...

He’s threatened me with court over the kids a few times before I stopped contact, and he even messaged my mum to say he’d take me/us to court for both children so I definitely think he’s being genuine with asking to see both girls, not just because he has to.

but yeah luckily for us there was never any unsupervised contact or overnights, so it should make our case a little stronger.

thank you for the advice. It’s much appreciated!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 12:16

Donkeyfromshrek · 18/12/2024 11:28

I'd be inclined to write down everything that has lead to you stopping contact if you haven't already. Write it as a timeline and make a note of where you have messages or anything else that backs up what you are saying. It doesn't sound like he has any chance but you don't want to be in a position where you are nervous and forget things.

Thank you. We’re having to submit witness statements so we will have loads to refer to.

OP posts:
Maddy70 · 18/12/2024 12:26

Just as aside i have LOADS of photos of my naked children, it really wasn't a thing a few years ago. It's only when internet activity became popular that people decided it was unwise

Frangywangywoowah · 18/12/2024 12:30

Yes you can request father of elder child is made party to the proceedings if things progress as he has PR and therefore a voice regarding his child.

LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 14:55

Maddy70 · 18/12/2024 12:26

Just as aside i have LOADS of photos of my naked children, it really wasn't a thing a few years ago. It's only when internet activity became popular that people decided it was unwise

Yeah of course I’m completely aware of that, I think I’m just worried that he’d attempt the same with my children if he was given access to them more than anything!

OP posts:
LivelyFish · 18/12/2024 14:56

Frangywangywoowah · 18/12/2024 12:30

Yes you can request father of elder child is made party to the proceedings if things progress as he has PR and therefore a voice regarding his child.

Thank you!

OP posts:
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