Sort of inheritance one

[DrBlackbird]

Parent in care home. Sibling in 50’s wants to sell own home and move into parental home, which is currently sitting empty, to save on mortgage payments. Sibling is single and on NMW and financially stressed. Though quite a bit is due to their financial choices/mismanagement, love for luxury holidays etc.

Putting a lot of pressure on us to make this happen. Quite an emotionally driven person. Not v flexible or reasonable. Sibling has form being v v forthright in advancing a personal agenda and cutting off contact if displeased. Our DCs are v close so I suppose I’ve tried to ensure that this doesn’t happen.

Has this scenario happened to anyone else? What were the outcomes? On the one hand, the house is sitting empty and it could save the sibling a lot of stress. On the other hand, what happens when parent runs out of savings to fund care? Apparently it’s up to each council to decide/allow the adult child to remain living in the house. Anyone have any experience of this?

If the house doesn’t need to be sold, then that’s another story of what happens once the parent passes and the other recipients want their share.

Interested to hear of anyone else’s similar’ish experiences.

OP just say a big NO to sibling and tell her if she objects to in future only contact you through solicitors - because you do not want the stress etc of her unreasonable and possibly illegal demands serving only her own interests. Forget about children's relationship - not relevant to the situation.

Can the house just be sold? Then the money would go into your parents bank accounts and your sibling can’t access it- then when your parents pass it will be split as per the will. I would get legal advice honestly as your sibling sounds like a cheeky shit. The money in the house is for your parents care, not to mop up their bad decisions.

Get legal advice and act quickly with a solicitor if there’s any cheekiness- use POA. And keep an eye on the house so they don’t do a sly move in!

We didn’t know that at the time @freshsweetpea and the care home never mentioned it. She’s not going to outlive the value of the house should it need to be sold to fund care. I imagine that the difference in its value isn’t going to be vast over that time period. Unless sibling puts a whole lot of ££ into doing it up, which the more I think about it, the more I see how that’s going to lead to a nightmare down the line.

I’ve never read a scenario on this website which has the most potential to go drastically wrong in so many ways.

I’m coming to the end of a slightly similar situation with my own sibling, who I’ve always found intimidating and historically has always been shit with money. Lesson learned was to set out my stall straightaway, possibly getting others to support me in the initial conversations…in the end the only comms was through our solicitors so I get it’s all horribly stressful, but please stay strong.

Do you think your sibling is that naive enough to think that their local authority will disregard the property if she moved in just because she struggles to pay her mortgage? I hope she doesn’t have the keys to the house.

Put the house up for sale asap. Your sibling needs to improve their income somehow. Put your own oxygen mask on first and all that.

If you are both executor and POA - but not jointly appointed with your sibling - you really need to think about how that came about. Presumably it's not just a coincidence, it's that you were chosen above anyone else to be capable of acting in your parent's best interests. I think you need to prioritise that responsibility above your sibling's desires.

Surely your parent wouldn't want your sibling to spend a bunch of money renovating their home, if only because of how messy it makes an inheritance.

If sibling was struggling on NMW and your parent needed care, they could have offered to care for parent full time (for which it would be reasonable to pay them a wage rather than to a care home). I'm not saying this is something anyone can do but this is the type of arrangement that benefits all parties. Instead they seem to be thinking about how there's a much nicer house they could be living in mortgage free and newly renovated, and they'll cross the bridge of not really owning it when the time comes. I think you just have to say no.

A more typical arrangement would be to use a lettings agent to rent the house fully managed. They'll take a hefty cut but the proceeds can be used for maintenance, and you'll just have to be patient in getting it unoccupied when the time comes.

Your decision was perfectly understandable OP - if you had known sibling might pipe up with bizarre suggestions, maybe you would have done differently, but it would just have been to have a piece of paper to point at for sibling.

But there’s actually no difference to the outcome - as with my parents, there is no chance they will reduce their assets to the threshold within any conceivable lifespan. Which does at least give the luxury of choosing care homes without regard as to whether the LA also funds places there etc!

A more typical arrangement would be to use a lettings agent to rent the house fully managed. They'll take a hefty cut but the proceeds can be used for maintenance, and you'll just have to be patient in getting it unoccupied when the time comes.

But this still makes OP a landlord, which she doesn’t want to be.

get it sold. If you think it’s tricky now just imagine how tricky things would be once you were dealing with probate

Personally, I would get the house sold as is asap. My neighbour lived all her 50 years with her Dad in family home. He is now in care home with dementia, Care Home recommended that house be sold, which it has now, she has moved into a mobile home, his care costs £8,000 per month. Get legal advice and take sibling with you.

It sounds like your sister is pushing you to let her live there. I don't think you need legal advice, you just need to be strong and say no - it's getting sold. If she stops talking to you then well be it, it shows what her intentions were all along.

You are being manipulated emotionally and financially by your sister

Selling the house seems to be the best option for you. Doing up a house is very expensive these days and fraught with potential pitfalls and hidden extras.

Your sibling's precarious position is not of your making and is not your responsibility. They may well be "desperate" but still that is no reason to create a potential nightmare scenario involving your parent's house.

So please, tell us who was responsible for seeing that your mum went into a home, and what assessments were done, and why your sister thinks that the house hasn't already been used to make a calculation. I am more than prepared to be proven wrong, but I am totally, totally fresh out of ideas as to what circumstances would mean that your mum got moved to a care home and is self-funding but without a financial assessment having taken place.

You definitely don't have to have a council financial assessment before you go into a home if you are self funding. When my FIL died, it was obvious that my MIL with dementia would have to go into a home. My DH phoned up the council who said that they could carry out a financial assessment if he wanted but if it turned out she would be self funding, he would have to pay for the assessment.

MIL went into the care home on the assumption that it was temporary (we knew it wasn't) and has now been there two years. DH had to show that she had two years worth of funding and if she ran out after that, they would keep her as a council funded resident (she won't, she has enough money to see her out). The only council involvement is the DOLs (Deprivation of liberty) assessment carried out periodically to check that she isn't being held against her will/against her best interests. That is sorted between the home and the council, DH has no involvement.

Anyway OP, I would sell the house ASAP and put the money in a high interest saving account. Just tell your Sis that you have to do what is best for your DM and if you don't you could get into serious trouble. End of story.

I’ve never read a scenario on this website which has the most potential to go drastically wrong in so many ways.

Oh dear. This is my worry. I am hoping to manage this situation without breaking up the family. It’s not easy.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing, though it's understandable.

You don't need to go back to your sister with the legal argument, you don't need to counter her 'research', you don't need legal advice. You just need to say no. "No, that doesn't work for me" "no, that wouldn't be in mum's best interests" "no, I can't see any upside for mum" "no".

As an aside, I never have understood all this "protect the property from care home fees" - yeah, fine. So you have an inheritance but your parent is in the council funded most basic, unpleasant care home for their last days. Who would want that, honestly? I didn't get on with my parents (neither went into care) but even I wouldn't have done that - they worked for that money, I have no right to an inheritance, they should have what suits them with their own money.

As an aside, I never have understood all this "protect the property from care home fees" - yeah, fine. So you have an inheritance but your parent is in the council funded most basic, unpleasant care home for their last days. Who would want that, honestly? I didn't get on with my parents (neither went into care) but even I wouldn't have done that - they worked for that money, I have no right to an inheritance, they should have what suits them with their own money.

Apart from the ethical thing, people are usually on a hiding to nothing because if the time comes the local authority will go through the person's accounts with very fine tooth combs going back years and years. There is no way to evade them coming for you (but possibly a lifetime trust?), or in this case OP if she agrees to her sibling's plan.

Oh dear. This is my worry. I am hoping to manage this situation without breaking up the family. It’s not easy.

TBH that may be out of your hands. My sister was a PITA all the time my DDad was in a care home and wouldn't even agree to a DNR on the day he died, wanted him to be taken to hospital even when he was dying, despite not wanting to be on the contact list for the care home, not wanting to be his rep etc.

I had bitten my tongue for a couple of years but after he died she tried rewriting history telling me how she'd visited every week (utter BS) and I just said what about the times she told me she couldn't deal with it and she was standing back (IMO she never actually stood up) and she slammed the phone down on me and we haven't spoken since (18 months and counting). Life is actually calmer and less draining without her in it.

Many elderly people choose themselves to do this as they actively wish to leave some sort of inheritance to their children.

Unlike in this case, where the sibling believes they won't have to pay anything, in most cases a couple will own their property as tenants in common.

Also, don't forget that relatively few people go into care homes anyway. Today, if you are currently 65, then you can expect to live to 86 on average if you're a woman and 83 if you're a man (source ONS).

Of women aged 80-84 there are 4% in care homes, but this does double to 9% for those aged 85-89.

So, more than 90% of women do not go into a care home.

(the figure does rise dramatically for those aged 90+. The figure is 21%, so if you live past 90 you have a one in five chance of ending up in a care home)

The comparable figures for men are 2.5% for those aged 80-84 and 4.5% for those aged 85-89.

(source ONS)

I think you misunderstood my point. There's also no need for you to lecture me on care homes, thanks.

An update to say I’ve an initial conversation with the sib and they’re seemingly reasonable when legal considerations raised.

Thanks to @Theeyeballsinthesky and @Dashel for those links. Made the conversation more neutral by being able to refer to those external sites.

I’m glad you had the conversation, I hope it’s a weight off your shoulders.

Are you going to speak to someone about selling the house to stop this coming up again and to stop it deteriorating further?

Such a red flag

please do not let them move in.

also you know what will happen…we all know…

• some half hearted improvements initially
• the equity from their sold house smashed up the wall on x y and z holidays cars etc
• parent dies and they want all or almost all of house (ie they offer to buy you out for £20k as it’s “all they can afford”)
• They refuse to leave and are as obstructive as possible as you are “making them homeless”
• they bad mouth you to anyone who will listen
• they kick up a massive fuss go nuclear and won’t speak to you ever again anyway

glad you had the initial convo and it was well received

I think the legal route is your best form of defence. Some people just won't listen to reason, because they just don't want to hear what is said.
It sounds like there's lots of good solid legal reasons why this can't happen, so use the power of Attorney to refuse on legal grounds, after legal advice

Seriously you would just be kicking the can down the road of family disharmony. Plus you'd be storing up all kinds of legal issues - especially if you and your sis are not the only beneficiaries. As executor you should ensure everyone gets their share of the estate. What happens if your sis won't move out?

It would be very messy legally and emotionally and far more stressful than you are feeling now. Selling the house is by far the cleanest solution. Your sibling will need to get a lodger, extend the length of their mortgage or downsize. I have seen too many threads where the sib has refused to move out in this kind of scenario and it's a legal and emotional nightmare.

Yes letting siblings move in rent free is not in your parents best interest as it wouldn't be readily available to sell or rent out to tenants at the market rate to help cover care costs not subside sib.
It's only in your sibs best interest hence why you have POA.

You're taking on too much responsibility here. Just say you're not allowed to do it. Your feelings as her sister don't come into it however much you or she might want them to.

If your sister disagrees then it should be up to her to get legal advice.