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Legal matters

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Sort of inheritance one

126 replies

DrBlackbird · 02/12/2024 18:44

Parent in care home. Sibling in 50’s wants to sell own home and move into parental home, which is currently sitting empty, to save on mortgage payments. Sibling is single and on NMW and financially stressed. Though quite a bit is due to their financial choices/mismanagement, love for luxury holidays etc.

Putting a lot of pressure on us to make this happen. Quite an emotionally driven person. Not v flexible or reasonable. Sibling has form being v v forthright in advancing a personal agenda and cutting off contact if displeased. Our DCs are v close so I suppose I’ve tried to ensure that this doesn’t happen.

Has this scenario happened to anyone else? What were the outcomes? On the one hand, the house is sitting empty and it could save the sibling a lot of stress. On the other hand, what happens when parent runs out of savings to fund care? Apparently it’s up to each council to decide/allow the adult child to remain living in the house. Anyone have any experience of this?

If the house doesn’t need to be sold, then that’s another story of what happens once the parent passes and the other recipients want their share.

Interested to hear of anyone else’s similar’ish experiences.

OP posts:
RawBloomers · 03/12/2024 00:16

DrBlackbird · 02/12/2024 21:22

@Soontobe60 i read that para as saying that local council could disregard DPs property if it meant that sibling could become homeless. How they determine it’s not solely to protect inheritance is the question.

Edited to add yes it would be incredibly high risk. As long as there was enough inheritance left, they could downsize to buy a smaller place.

Edited

Deleted as quoted wrong post!

RawBloomers · 03/12/2024 00:18

DrBlackbird · 02/12/2024 20:56

Not caring rent is not deprivation of assets as rent is not an asset. There can be sound reasons for a non rent paying person to be in the house, for example by being there they are keeping the property in good repair or improving it ready for eventual sale, and will move out promptly (one hopes), no need to give a tenant notice.

^ Does this argument have any merit?

Sib can’t/won’t move into DPs house without renovations (it does desperately need updating) so it has to be a) DP sells house and b) moves into DPs house. Then won’t be able to afford paying any rent to DP but would keep property and improve it. That’d be the plan.

A question for someone legally qualified - If she put money into the house to renovate it, would she gain an interest in the property the way unmarried partners can when living with a house owner?

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 00:35

I have been through all of this with my MIL a few years back, and through the work I do I've supported numerous families in the same process. My MIL lacked capacity, and my DH & his sister were awarded POA before capacity was lost.
I have also read the entire thread fully - you've been given some great advice in places, but some of it less so.

There are multiple issues in the OP and because the factors overlap in places, the waters have become extremely muddied - you absolutely need to separate out each point individually, to work out what the issues are, what the consequences are, and how you proceed.

First off, if you are saying you mum has money for around two years care, that must mean she is self-funding her care, and must have undergone a financial assessment from social services as part of the assessments that are carried out before someone can permanently move to a care home. Therefore, the value of her property will have been decided & recorded already, and will have been used to determine whether or not she has to pay for some, all, or any of her care.

At this point, your sister was not living in the house, nor does she fit into the other criteria (as outlined by PPs) to have the property value disregarded anyway. In other words, this ship has likely sailed, and I can’t see how she can expect to move in & hope to have the value of the house disregarded at the discretion of the social services / council, because I cannot see how / why another financial assessment would be carried out until such time all your mum's savings and then assets had been drawn down to £23,250, which is the current threshold where the council will step in to help pay the fees. Here, another assessment would be done so that the council could verify the need for them to pay for her care.

But while mum is self-funding the whole of her care fees, the issue becomes one of whether or not your mum can continue to afford to pay the care home bill, and nothing else. No one can or is going to force you to sell the house, nor can or will they force you to rent it out. The only obligation is for the care home to have their bill paid, and no one cares how or who does that, so long as it’s paid for, using money that has not been acquired illegally.

As POA, if you decide that you are not going to sell the house, and then your mum runs out of savings, it’s up to you to decide how the care home fees are paid, and that may (note: may) mean you can ask the council to pay the care home fees & put a charge for that amount onto the property. However, as others have said, once your mum dies, there isn’t much time in which to pay back that amount – 90 days from death, bearing in mind that interest will be payable on this loan (“the charge”) too.

In respect of your sister moving in and living in your mum’s home rent-free, this is not a deprivation of assets, in the same way that selling the house now and banking the money is not either – in both cases the “asset” is making no money (except for any interest gained while in a bank account of course).

However, if your sister (or anyone else for that matter) moved in, paid rent, your mum paid tax on the rent, and then the rental income was spent on anything that was not required for your mum’s needs, this would almost certainly be considered a deprivation if social services had the need to investigate your mum’s finances. But as before, that’s only going to happen when all the savings & assets that have already been taken into account have been depleted to £23,250 and another financial assessment takes place.

Now, you now have to unpick the complexities of allowing your sister to move into your mum’s house, and to pay for renovations on a home that is not hers. How is all that going to work both from the point of view of your sister claiming in the future that she has put X amount of time & money into the home, either when your mum runs out of savings, or dies? Because given that the house will have already been taken into account as an asset, you will have to draw down against the value of it one way or another.

Assuming that your have to sell the house in order to draw down against it, whether or not your sister could argue that she is entitled to receive the value of the money she spent on renovations is another matter, but given that social services will already have valued it for Y, it will only go up in value if work is done to it, so even when it sells for Z it is only the original value that has to be adhered to, leaving money over that won’t have to be taken into account for care home fees.

All of this is much further complicated by what happens after your mum’s death. You must be aware that your POA ceases the second your mum dies, and from thereon in it’s the executors (assuming your mum wrote a will and appointed executors) who take control. Do you know if she did this? If so, has she shown you a copy of her most recent will? If so, who gets what and who are the executors? Because if you aren’t an executor, you’re going to have to explain to whoever is how and why your sister came to live in the property.

To summarise, your mum has savings and a house, and is in a care home – no matter what path anyone in that situation takes, it is very, very rare for assets to be disregarded, and your sister is stupid for thinking she of all people is the one who has found a loop-hole around of it…it just does not happen that way. The one and only time I knew of a property being disregarded was in the case of someone who only owned half of it (because she'd owned it as a tenant-in-common with her late husband, and his half had been left to their sons), and her half was only worth around £40,000. This -along with the fact that it could technically be impossible to sell the house should the sons choose not to- allowed social services to consider her half to have no value, and was therefore disregarded. But as before, it's a very rare thing to hear of.

As for whether or not you should allow her to move in, and furthermore allow her to spend her money doing the place up, that falls squarely on your shoulders, and no one on Mumsnet can tell you what to do…you just have to be prepared to justify your choices to anyone who may be authorised to ask you for such information, and you have to be prepared to get your sister out the house if / when it has to be sold, or if / when you find out it’s been left to someone else.

Were it me in your situation, and taking into account the fact you say the property is in no fit state to be rented out, I’d be putting in on the market tomorrow, taking whatever figure it goes for, and banking the money in your mum’s bank account. I wouldn’t want any worry or responsibility for what could or couldn’t be held liable for above the bare minimum. But I’m not you. Good luck.

healthybychristmas · 03/12/2024 00:54

So what would happen if your sibling moved into the house, spent some money on doing it up and then your parent immediately died? You can bet they would want that money back.

What if they were halfway through jobs on the house and your parent died? They certainly wouldn't finish the job

It's just far too complicated and it's not in your parent's best interest

Hedgerow2 · 03/12/2024 01:28

If savings will run out in 2 years you ought to just sell the house now. It could take ages to find a buyer (there are properties near us that have been on the market for the best part of a year). And then it will take a few months for the sale to go through. It would hardly be worth your sibling moving in - assuming they'd be willing to move out when necessary.

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2024 08:18

@RawBloomers sibling has a share in the house as part of our inheritance (of whatever is left). The bigger question is about whether putting money into the house garners a bigger share than entitled in the will.

I suspect that my sibling is thinking of staying there past when DP passes but we haven’t progressed talks that far yet.

Thank you for your long post @freshsweetpea I’m the executor as well as poa and have been shown the will.

it is very, very rare for assets to be disregarded

That’s one of the big questions and the situation requires a full conversation looking at a) what happens if DP needs money realised from the house to fund care, b) what happens when DP passes, c) what are the expectations around the extra money put into the house, d) how long did sibling envision living in DPs home and e) what happens if sibling doesn’t want to move out but the other beneficiaries want their share.

It’s incredibly difficult to talk to sibling. They’re not stupid but once they get an idea, it becomes fixed and there is just no give. Very black and white thinking. So I need to understand the wider implications before sitting down for ‘that’ conversation. Whilst of course no one can tell me what to do, the comments here have raised some points that I might have not fully considered. I appreciate these giving me food for thought and will be seeking legal advice.

Edited to add: And who decides what work is needed, design, quality of materials etc - the sibling all family as a whole? Another question…

OP posts:
Onthesideofthespiders · 03/12/2024 08:25

Couldn’t she rent her own house out for a fixed period of time, so all the costs of that house are covered and then move into your mum’s home for the rental period? That way, the house isn’t empty (which is a good thing) but she still has her home to return to.
Have an honest discussion about your worries and that she cannot put herself into a position to get the house or keep any inheritance to herself so she can only stay there if she still owns her own home and can move back when the house is needed?
Otherwise, refuse. Or speak to your mum and get her house sold now. The money goes into her account and your sister gets no access to it. Have you got POA for your mum? Get it.

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:31

must have undergone a financial assessment from social services as part of the assessments that are carried out before someone can permanently move to a care home.

I don’t think it’s obligatory to have such an assessment, is it? If you (or your relatives) already know you wouldn’t receive a contribution from the LA, I am pretty sure you can just sign the contracts for private pay and crack on.

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 03/12/2024 08:33

Rent it out to get an income for care home fees.

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:34

@DrBlackbird the issue seems to be that sibling is assuming being giving the discretion is the default, whereas my sense is that the discretion is the exception.

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:35

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 03/12/2024 08:33

Rent it out to get an income for care home fees.

Renting a knackered property isn’t that easy, OP would have to get safety certs etc and become a landlord and sort repairs etc. She is entitled not to want to do that!

Flamez · 03/12/2024 08:37

Get the house on the market right now. If appropriate get it in auction, if it needs a lot of work doing.

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:40

I would also agree with selling it now, sticking the money in some kind of 1-2 year long term savings with a main stream bank, then you can access that when other savings run out.

user1492757084 · 03/12/2024 08:41

Can the sibling sell their own home and invest in a percentage of the parental home - say 1/3?
All formalised and with paperwork and legal advice.
Payments would have to be on time.
A clause written in if the house were to be sold etc.
The remaining portion of the home could be rented out and your sibling would have to share with lodger.

Then when your parent needs the house sold the sibling (or another sibling) could buy the remaining portion.
If your parent dies then the house is sold (with the sibling living there able to buy the rest at that time) or sold and divided into the portions owned by your parent and your sibling.

Seek proper advice on how to formalise whatever you do.

Onthesideofthespiders · 03/12/2024 08:44

user1492757084 · 03/12/2024 08:41

Can the sibling sell their own home and invest in a percentage of the parental home - say 1/3?
All formalised and with paperwork and legal advice.
Payments would have to be on time.
A clause written in if the house were to be sold etc.
The remaining portion of the home could be rented out and your sibling would have to share with lodger.

Then when your parent needs the house sold the sibling (or another sibling) could buy the remaining portion.
If your parent dies then the house is sold (with the sibling living there able to buy the rest at that time) or sold and divided into the portions owned by your parent and your sibling.

Seek proper advice on how to formalise whatever you do.

That’s a really bad idea. If the sister is allowed to buy part of the home, then getting her out with require a big legal fight. Forcing the sale won’t be easy if the sister has part ownership. That’s a really bad idea.

Samesame47 · 03/12/2024 08:46

Could your sibling rent their own home out and live at your parents, she will therefore be maintaining it and covering essential bills (better than it sitting empty and deteriorating) but on the proviso that it’s not permanent. Financially the rent on their place may help them get out of the financial situation but that they are in

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 08:53

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2024 08:18

@RawBloomers sibling has a share in the house as part of our inheritance (of whatever is left). The bigger question is about whether putting money into the house garners a bigger share than entitled in the will.

I suspect that my sibling is thinking of staying there past when DP passes but we haven’t progressed talks that far yet.

Thank you for your long post @freshsweetpea I’m the executor as well as poa and have been shown the will.

it is very, very rare for assets to be disregarded

That’s one of the big questions and the situation requires a full conversation looking at a) what happens if DP needs money realised from the house to fund care, b) what happens when DP passes, c) what are the expectations around the extra money put into the house, d) how long did sibling envision living in DPs home and e) what happens if sibling doesn’t want to move out but the other beneficiaries want their share.

It’s incredibly difficult to talk to sibling. They’re not stupid but once they get an idea, it becomes fixed and there is just no give. Very black and white thinking. So I need to understand the wider implications before sitting down for ‘that’ conversation. Whilst of course no one can tell me what to do, the comments here have raised some points that I might have not fully considered. I appreciate these giving me food for thought and will be seeking legal advice.

Edited to add: And who decides what work is needed, design, quality of materials etc - the sibling all family as a whole? Another question…

Edited

You are most welcome. However, in respect of the disregard of the house for care home fees (or more to the point the fact it almost won't be such) following a financial assessment, I did point out that this assessment must have already taken place before your mum went into a home - I'm 99% sure it would have been, as I don't see how she would be there without the full assessment.

As such, there is no question as to whether or not the house will be disregarded, because it will already have been taken into account. Your sister can't move in and hope the home will later be disregarded once all the ready-cash savings are spent, because that's not what will happen - the house will already have been used in the calculations, and another financial assessment won't happen again until such time the house (and the money from it) is no longer your mum's.

So please, tell us who was responsible for seeing that your mum went into a home, and what assessments were done, and why your sister thinks that the house hasn't already been used to make a calculation. I am more than prepared to be proven wrong, but I am totally, totally fresh out of ideas as to what circumstances would mean that your mum got moved to a care home and is self-funding but without a financial assessment having taken place.

Please confirm.

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 09:03

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:31

must have undergone a financial assessment from social services as part of the assessments that are carried out before someone can permanently move to a care home.

I don’t think it’s obligatory to have such an assessment, is it? If you (or your relatives) already know you wouldn’t receive a contribution from the LA, I am pretty sure you can just sign the contracts for private pay and crack on.

While it is not obligatory to have a financial assessment, and one can be refused, someone has to be assessed before they can go into a care home. You can read more here:

https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-needs-assessment

The financial assessment usually goes hand-in-hand at the same time, and I can't think why it would be refused by anyone under "normal" circumstances, which is why I am almost certain that a financial assessment will have taken place. After all, as has been said over & over, in rare cases property is disregarded, and in some cases where the patient is so ill they may not have to pay at all (exceptional circumstances), regardless of their savings & assets, so for a financial assessment to have been refused in the case of the OP is something I would be very surprised to hear.

https://www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-needs-assessment

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2024 09:11

We knew she had enough not to be eligible for council funding, so we never asked or sought a financial assessment from social services. The care home assessed they could meet her physical needs, we said it’d be self funding and that was that. I’d have thought was pretty common.

From the link @freshsweetpea posted: If you feel you may be eligible for state-funded care, you should ask your local council to carry out a care needs assessment. We knew she wasn’t eligible.

OP posts:
SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 09:13

@freshsweetpea I am speaking from my own experience with my parents. They have enough assets and pension income (both including and excluding the home) to cover care home fees for longer than any plausible life span. So I genuinely do not think they had the financial assessment you mention (because I think DBro and I would have been involved) before my dad went into care.

Hence the question as to whether it was obligatory.

Anyway, this is a bit of a side path as I think we are both agreed that sibling moving in is a terrible plan!

ETA - x post with the OP who seems to have had the same!

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 09:15

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 09:13

@freshsweetpea I am speaking from my own experience with my parents. They have enough assets and pension income (both including and excluding the home) to cover care home fees for longer than any plausible life span. So I genuinely do not think they had the financial assessment you mention (because I think DBro and I would have been involved) before my dad went into care.

Hence the question as to whether it was obligatory.

Anyway, this is a bit of a side path as I think we are both agreed that sibling moving in is a terrible plan!

ETA - x post with the OP who seems to have had the same!

Edited

It is not a side path at all - the whole thing hinges in part on whether or not the sister is able to live in a house that may already have been used to calculate care home fees.

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 09:15

someone has to be assessed before they can go into a care home.

The assessment from my dad was someone from each care home coming to meet him and ask my mum questions (he had dementia).

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2024 09:17

SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 08:34

@DrBlackbird the issue seems to be that sibling is assuming being giving the discretion is the default, whereas my sense is that the discretion is the exception.

Yes I think that’s the assumption. You’re also right that I don’t want to add the role of LL on top of everything else I already have to manage in my life!

OP posts:
SheilaFentiman · 03/12/2024 09:17

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 09:15

It is not a side path at all - the whole thing hinges in part on whether or not the sister is able to live in a house that may already have been used to calculate care home fees.

Ok. I disagree about this hinging, TBH. Even if the house hasn’t already been assessed, in two years, the council will do a look back if asked to pay for care for a resident who owns an asset and will note that the move happened after the entry to care. At that point, they are likely to require the house to be sold rather than stump up for care.

freshsweetpea · 03/12/2024 09:19

DrBlackbird · 03/12/2024 09:11

We knew she had enough not to be eligible for council funding, so we never asked or sought a financial assessment from social services. The care home assessed they could meet her physical needs, we said it’d be self funding and that was that. I’d have thought was pretty common.

From the link @freshsweetpea posted: If you feel you may be eligible for state-funded care, you should ask your local council to carry out a care needs assessment. We knew she wasn’t eligible.

Edited

But did social services do any kind of assessment for your mum? If a financial assessment has already be ruled out by you as the POA because you considered your mum would likely be a self-funder, then that's really very unfortunate. It should have all been done at the time so that you were clear as to what boundaries you were working to, and what the value of the house was, because as I said before, the value given to the house should not change, even if it goes up in value over time.

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