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Probate trusts and assets big problem

11 replies

NettleTea · 14/11/2024 19:09

FIL died at the end of July and he left a will.

He didnt own any property outright - the house he lived in was owned by a family farm business of which he held roughly half the shares.
Like most farmers he was asset rich and financially not - all the money in his bank account will be used to pay outstanding care home fees at administration. and wont even cover that.

FIL's will leaves equal shares to his son, his daughter and his grandson.

Daughter is disabled and relies on state benefits - currently I believe ESA and HB, and she lives at the other end of the country and is very difficult to communicate with due to no internet, and only a very old mobile that does, or does not, pick up messages, plus MH issues.

When FIL wrote his will it was possible to put shares / assets into a discretionary trust, which would have meant that SILs shares could be held in there, preventing the family farm being sold, and not affecting her benefits. I assume he thought that she would be paid an income from the trust, despite the fact that the farm just about keeps afloat and has never paid any shareholder profits.

However rules about discretionary trusts changed this year and this is no longer the case. I am aware that there are disabled person trusts, however I know that SIL would not agree to that, and I am not even sure whether she receives PIP. I know they are transitioning everyone from income based ESA over to UC this year.

Previously, when FIL was alive, the DWP disregarded the shares that he held outright, as did the council for his home care, and assessed him only on his pension and attendance allowance, as they considered that as he held shares in the business that owned his home, and earned no income from the shares, that is was the equivalent of him owning his home, and thats not an asset they consider whilst he is living at home. It would appear that this is totally at the discretion of DWP, and whether shares are in trust or not in trust makes no difference. We offered SIL to come and live in a property on the farm and assisting her to ask for this same discretion to apply - she would no longer need HB, but hopefully would still be entitled to ESA/UC/LCWRA

There is a letter of intention that explains the above reason for the shares being placed in a trust, with SIL/DP and the solicitors listed as trustees and executors. The letter also states that if the trust serves no purpose then it should be wound up.

We feel that the time constraints and costs of setting up the trust and immediately dissolving it seems like unnecessary procedure, given it cannot perform the function that it was created for. She was told by CAB that her benefits would be stopped in Feb, due to the trust needing to be set up within 6 months of FIL death, although there is no chance that letters of administration will be ready at that point, so any trust would lie empty, so I am not entirely sure if that is true.

We wrote to the solicitors and SIL to suggest dispensing with the trust, but she has not replied to us or the solicitor. She also has not sent any documents to prove her ID to the solicitor since they requested in August.

We had hoped to do probate ourselves, again due to the fact there is no cash to be had for legal bills, but in the only letter that she has sent, SIL said she wanted the solicitors involved and she refused to surrender executorship, despite then not corresponding at all since then. We did propose sending all paperwork through to her so she could see everything - we have a file and invoices / bills for everything since POA kicked in a few years back to allow DP, who is a director, to continue to manage the farm business, as his father later developed Alzheimers.

As SIL was not in agreement with us doing the probate paperwork, the solicitors were stuck between 2 differing views and resigned as both executors and trustees. We said we were happy to have them as executors if it gave transparency to SIL, but they have written today to say they are still resigning, and that if we wanted them to act we would need to instruct them personally, making DP and SIL liable for any bill, rather than the estate. They made no comment about whether we are able to simply do away with the trust, if the letter of intent implies as such, so we are still in the dark about that and obviously have no agreement from SIL about it. They said that they still did not have proof of identity from SIL. I think they think its going to be a mess and they are worried it will be very expensive if they are involved and will force us to sell the farm to pay their bill.

we feel really stuck. We dont know if we can dispense with this trust or not. We cant get any information from SIL. We have written to her and the solicitors have written to her. What happens if we just dont do it - will the letter of intent show that it wasnt needed? I asked if we needed a deed of variation, but am unsure if thats just about distribution once letters of administration are issued, and unsure if it would apply at this point in the (non) proceedings. and beyond that SIL will need to sign it too as being in agreement.

I think I probably CAN do the probate if I really need to - our accountant has said she is happy to go over all the figures but its complex being shares rather than a straight freehold farm.But mainly if SIL is supposed to be an executor, how the hell is that going to work if she cant even get her ID to the solicitors and wont answer any question? And has no email for the links, etc needed for administration, etc. Is there a time limit on probate? I can see this just being stuck in limbo forever.

OP posts:
Cloouudnine · 14/11/2024 19:23

Leaving aside the question of the trust … Could you write to her and say that if she fails to reply within two weeks then you will have to take the step of petitioning court to remove her as Executor. You’d then be free to do whatever is necessary.

Probate can drag on for a long time. My dad’s simple estate took nearly three years to distribute to the beneficiaries.

Personally I wouldn’t cut corners to save money on legal fees unless you and your accountant are really sure what you’re doing. I have only done the probate for one estate (I’m a qualified accountant) but I found it difficult. I wished I had put the work in the hands of a solicitor.

NettleTea · 14/11/2024 19:41

Cloouudnine · 14/11/2024 19:23

Leaving aside the question of the trust … Could you write to her and say that if she fails to reply within two weeks then you will have to take the step of petitioning court to remove her as Executor. You’d then be free to do whatever is necessary.

Probate can drag on for a long time. My dad’s simple estate took nearly three years to distribute to the beneficiaries.

Personally I wouldn’t cut corners to save money on legal fees unless you and your accountant are really sure what you’re doing. I have only done the probate for one estate (I’m a qualified accountant) but I found it difficult. I wished I had put the work in the hands of a solicitor.

I think this is the nuclear option that we have in mind, but due to her MH issues Im not sure there would be any coming back from it.
complicated background but seems that PIL did and said things that caused an estrangement that we are trying to heal. Plus the nuclear option is definately going to result in the loss of the business we have been building for the last 15 years, mainly unpaid, again under false promises

OP posts:
Another2Cats · 15/11/2024 08:21

I'm not sure I understand why you think a discretionary trust is no longer appropriate. A vulnerable persons trust is still a discretionary trust, except with some tax advantages.

What new regulations are there?

Can I just check my understanding. Did your FIL leave her the shares in a discretionary trust in his will? Or did he just leave her the shares and you now want to put them into a trust after his death?

If he left her the shares in a discretionary trust in his will then I am not aware of any changes to the regulations.

If it were to be questioned then your SIL would say something along the lines of

"It is not my money, I have no right to demand any particular payments from the trustees and I have no right to bring the trust to an end.

I did not set up the trust myself so I have not deprived myself of capital to which I would otherwise be entitled.

My interest, such as it is, is not a valuable asset because the trustees would simply refuse to make any payments whatever to whomever I were to assign my interest to"

In contrast, if he left her the shares and now, after his death, you are looking to put those into trust by means of a deed of variation then that would certainly be deprivation of assets.

"...her benefits would be stopped in Feb, due to the trust needing to be set up within 6 months of FIL death"

I'm confused by this statement. If your FIL left the shares to her in trust in his will, the trust is already "set up", it comes into existence on his death.

If you mean that he just left her the shares but not in a trust then this would probably be considered deprivation of assets.
.

I would agree with the pp that removing her as an executor might be a way forward.

"...due to her MH issues"

That is one of the grounds for removing an executor. There is a very easy to understand explanation of the process here:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103565

.
"Plus the nuclear option is definately going to result in the loss of the business"

Why would it do that? SIL is a minority (I presume) shareholder in the family business. How would that affect the business?

How to remove an executor of a will | The Gazette...

How do you remove yourself or someone else as the executor of a will? Kelly-Anne Carr of Wright Hassall explains what to do if an executor doesn?t...

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103565

NettleTea · 15/11/2024 09:18

Thank you for that information.

From what I understand, in March 2024 the rules regarding discretionary trusts and universal credit was changed. (she will be moved to UC this year)

Income from the shares/trust is counted as income (which of course it should be)

but capital in a trust is now considered and it would likely be valued over the £16K threashold that would make her ineligible for UC. It really seems to be down to the particular assessors within DWP as to whether they disregard it or not, which is a gamble. FILs shares were owned outright and disregarded as capital by DWP after I negotiated with them.

FIL's will states that a trust should be set up after his death, with all the shares, not just hers. However the letter of intention states that it is to protect her means tested benefits, and if thats no longer the case, then get rid of the trust. The trust doesnt exist as such yet.

And no, sadly FIL didnt do anything as sensible as ring fencing any shares to compensate DP for all the work he has done and the side business that basically kept the farm afloat. He has divided the shares equally, so she will hold as many, including voting shares, as DP, who remebers a comment of 'you will have to fight it out' that now makes sense

https://www.rathbones.com/knowledge-and-insight/universal-credit-and-trusts-important-changes

OP posts:
NettleTea · 15/11/2024 09:25

he also said in the will that SIL, DP and the solicitors were to set it up, with them as the three trustees. So she cant argue that she has no control over it as she will be a trustee.

The reasons likely that it would destroy the business is it is less likely that she would be willing to come and be housed/supported on the farm, because she would view her brother as enemy no 1 for removing control, and she would demand the business be wound up so she could realise her assets. Ideally DP would like to reconcile with her personally. However he also doesnt want to lose his home and business.

TBH its an absolute shitshow.

OP posts:
NettleTea · 15/11/2024 09:26

The trust does not exist at the moment. The solicitors told us we have 6 months from date of death to set up a trust.

They have resigned as trustees too.

OP posts:
Another2Cats · 15/11/2024 10:55

"...but capital in a trust is now considered"

I just read the link that you gave and it says:

"The terms of the trust will then dictate if it can be disregarded for the purposes of Universal Credit."

That hasn't changed.

Might I suggest that you have a word with the charity Mencap. They have a separate trust company that sets up discretionary trusts, both ordinary discretionary trusts and vulnerable beneficiary trusts, for people with a learning disability or autism.

It probably wouldn't be suitable in your situation to use them as trustees but you would likely be able to get accurate and up to date information from them:

https://www.mencaptrust.org.uk/

"It really seems to be down to the particular assessors within DWP as to whether they disregard it or not, which is a gamble."

There is an appeal process, first to a different Decision Maker and then there are two further levels of appeal which goes to a judge.
.

"The trust does not exist at the moment. The solicitors told us we have 6 months from date of death to set up a trust."

Until you've got probate and completed the administration (eg paying his debts, distributing his assets etc) then those shares - and any other assets still belong to his estate. This would not affect the SIL in terms of her having capital as the shares are not yet hers, they still belong to FIL's estate.

So, technically, the discretionary trust doesn't exist today as you haven't got probate yet. But the moment you get probate and pay off his debts etc you will then transfer the shares from yourself as executor to yourself as trustee.

The bit about 6 months sounds very strange indeed. Inheritance tax (IHT) becomes payable after 6 months but since this is a family business then I assume there is no IHT?

I am not aware of any requirement around trusts and six months from death? The trust will exist after you get probate and administration is completed. It is very common for administration to take longer than 6 months.

Perhaps speak to different solicitors? That sounds very odd indeed.
.

"...the side business that basically kept the farm afloat."

Was that run as a separate business with separate bank accounts? Or was it all just run as part of the overall farm operation?

If it was an entirely separate operation then there may be an argument that this is a business that your DP ran by himself and is not part of the farm.

But if it all went through the farm's books then that is likely not an option to pursue.

"...she would demand the business be wound up so she could realise her assets"

Do you really believe that would be likely? Also, in your OP you said:

"FIL's will leaves equal shares to his son, his daughter and his grandson."

Does that include voting shares as well? What about the grandson?

It might be worthwhile looking at the Articles of Association for the company and see if it says anything about a casting vote where shareholders are deadlocked.

If she were to demand her assets could you just give her half (or however much) of the farm and you retain the other half and the business?

If she were to go all the way to court and apply for a winding up petition then the court may still choose to order that the business is split in two rather than having to be sold off.

Learning Disability - Autism - Down's Syndrome

Find out about Mencap Trust Company and how discretionary trust funds or disabled person's trust funds can support people with a learning disability or autism.

https://www.mencaptrust.org.uk

hamsandyams · 15/11/2024 11:09

NettleTea · 15/11/2024 09:25

he also said in the will that SIL, DP and the solicitors were to set it up, with them as the three trustees. So she cant argue that she has no control over it as she will be a trustee.

The reasons likely that it would destroy the business is it is less likely that she would be willing to come and be housed/supported on the farm, because she would view her brother as enemy no 1 for removing control, and she would demand the business be wound up so she could realise her assets. Ideally DP would like to reconcile with her personally. However he also doesnt want to lose his home and business.

TBH its an absolute shitshow.

It’s unlikely she’d be able to do this.

She can have her ‘asset’ if she wants it - it’s the shares in the company. It doesn’t sound like she will have voting control (if FIL only had half and has split between 2 siblings, she will have 25% at best).

She can block certain things if she does have 25%, but unless the other shareholders agree she won’t be able to force the business to be wound up. She will just be able to stamp her feet and wave her share certificate about.

If the shares are in trust and are more than 50%, then she could apply to a court and ask them to force the company be liquidated as the trustees are in deadlock - but this would be a complex position with no guarantee of success (as your DH would presumably argue that wasn’t in the best interest of all beneficiaries).

TheFlis · 15/11/2024 11:19

Where is the grandson who also inherited a third in all this? Is that your child of SIL’s? It sounds like SIL will only hold 16.6% of the total shares so she wouldn’t be able to force a sale or anything unless she got all the other shareholders on side. Who owns the other 50%, I assume a sibling of FIL.

NettleTea · 16/11/2024 11:42

@Another2Cats thank you for the advice. I will speak to Mencap on Monday.

I have messaged you as there is stuff I dont really want on a public forum, if you are OK with that

OP posts:
NettleTea · 16/11/2024 11:54

TheFlis · 15/11/2024 11:19

Where is the grandson who also inherited a third in all this? Is that your child of SIL’s? It sounds like SIL will only hold 16.6% of the total shares so she wouldn’t be able to force a sale or anything unless she got all the other shareholders on side. Who owns the other 50%, I assume a sibling of FIL.

Edited

he is mine and my DPs son

OP posts:
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