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Legal matters

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Undefined boundary

17 replies

Vessys · 30/10/2024 08:23

Good morning everyone. I need an advise about a case which makes me worry a lot. We bought a house three years ago and we have a shared drive. The adjoining property is a council property, and St Leger homes are the association who is responsible. On the title plan the all the boundaries are marked as they should but the one on the shared drive is written as undefined boundary. Now I would like to erect a fence between the properties and I kindly asked St Leger's association for a permission and they rejected, saying they can not give permission because this is undefined boundary. On the plan we can clearly see where the lines goes and that the drive is shared on equal parts. I have contacted Land registry and they said to look for a legal advice which brought me to you. Can you please advise me about the procedure and the steps needed to be taken to solve this problem? Can we change the undefined boundary at all? And can I do this without the adjoining property's permission? Because obviously they do not want to cooperate. I want to thank you all in advance. Have a lovely day everybody.

OP posts:
Collaborate · 30/10/2024 09:06

If it is a shared drive then you have rights over their side and they have rights over yours. You can't erect a fence so as to interfere with those rights. If that's what you're proposing the "undefined" boundary is an irrelevance.

Vessys · 30/10/2024 09:12

So can this be changed? I am wondering how all the houses around have a fences in between on shared drives and it seems like impossible just for us.

OP posts:
Rollercoaster1920 · 30/10/2024 09:20

Buy an official copy of the deeds to both houses from Land Registry. The Official Copy can have more info than the download available - so it is worth waiting and paying for. Also any historic conveyances if they have covenants or easements in them.

Read both house deeds and see what they say about the driveway. It is likely that there is some easement to say each property has access rights.

If there isn't something saying that then you could fence your boundary (only on your own land) to secure your property.
Be aware that if the neighbour has been using the shared access for a number of years they may have a case to enforce a legal right to continue using. Search "prescriptive access rights". I think it is 20 years use.

Vessys · 30/10/2024 17:55

there is written that we both have access to each other's side, as ''Collaborate'' is saying and this area is coloured in brown on the plan, so I suppose this is mission: impossible to sort it out. I don't know how all houses around has done this really, because the majority of the properties on the street are council houses and almost all of them are sharing footpath and this is separated by fence. I don't know...

OP posts:
Rollercoaster1920 · 30/10/2024 23:37

Collaborate is unusual wording. It sounds like you have a binary and then an area in brown which is shared access. So you can't fence them off.
If they aren't collaborating then that's a legal process that nob one will win apart from lawyers.

Collaborate · 31/10/2024 07:07

@Rollercoaster1920 Your post doesn’t make sense.

@Vessys Both owners can agree to relinquish rights over the other’s side, thereby allowing a fence to be erected. Without agreement there is literally nothing you can do about it.

Vessys · 31/10/2024 09:25

Collaborate · 31/10/2024 07:07

@Rollercoaster1920 Your post doesn’t make sense.

@Vessys Both owners can agree to relinquish rights over the other’s side, thereby allowing a fence to be erected. Without agreement there is literally nothing you can do about it.

that sounds great. What is the procedure?Can I ask them directly, or I have to go trough solicitor again?

OP posts:
downwindofyou · 31/10/2024 14:57

I can't picture it. You say the drive is shared. Is it a really wide drive? If you put a fence down the middle of it do both sides get a full width driveway or half a normal width driveway?

RedFronds · 31/10/2024 15:03

downwindofyou · 31/10/2024 14:57

I can't picture it. You say the drive is shared. Is it a really wide drive? If you put a fence down the middle of it do both sides get a full width driveway or half a normal width driveway?

This is what I was wondering. Most shared driveways are too narrow to make in to two full driveways. That's why they are shared in the first place.

RedFronds · 31/10/2024 15:03

Rollercoaster1920 · 30/10/2024 23:37

Collaborate is unusual wording. It sounds like you have a binary and then an area in brown which is shared access. So you can't fence them off.
If they aren't collaborating then that's a legal process that nob one will win apart from lawyers.

Collaborate is a poster.

Collaborate · 31/10/2024 18:04

Vessys · 31/10/2024 09:25

that sounds great. What is the procedure?Can I ask them directly, or I have to go trough solicitor again?

Ask them. If they say no, it goes no further. If they agree, speak to a solicitor.

Mum247PlanningConsultantByDay · 02/11/2024 19:20

This reply has been deleted

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Vessys · 03/11/2024 07:27

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Thank you so much for this response. This is the best answer I can get. Thanks to you, now the situation looks more clear to me, because I was really confused. Thank you. What do you think about the right of way we have to each other's side?

OP posts:
Mum247PlanningConsultantByDay · 03/11/2024 14:25

My pleasure.

Ok now with situations involving a shared driveway, understanding rights of way is crucial.

A right of way typically allows one party to use a portion of land owned by another party for specific purposes, such as accessing a property.

Here’s how to approach the situation and what to consider regarding the shared driveway:

1. Review the Title Deeds and Covenants
As @Rollercoaster1920 mentioned above the first step is to look at the title deeds for both properties (yours and your neighbour's).

These should provide specific details about any rights of way granted or reserved. Typically, the title deeds will outline the legal rights and obligations for property owners regarding the shared drive.

You can purchase the Title Register and Title Plan from HM Land Registry:
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds

Select "Get a copy of the deeds"

Scroll down to "Find out if the property or land is registered." Click on that.

Scroll down to the "Search for a property" and click the "Start Now" button.

Cost is £3 for Title Register and £3 for Title Plan.

You'll need your Title Register (a summary of the property, charges register, easements on the property, etc) and Title Plan (a map of the land each property occupies)

You will find references to any easements within the Title Register.
Note:
To obtain the official copy of the Deed you will need to complete an OC1 form located here on the HM Land Registry https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/official-copies-of-register-or-plan-registration-oc1

If the title deeds mention a formal right of way over the shared driveway, it means both properties have legal permission to access and use the drive.

The document should specify:

  • Who holds the right of way.
  • The extent of the right (e.g., is it for vehicle access, pedestrian access, or both?).
  • Any restrictions or responsibilities, such as maintenance or repair obligations.

2. Easement Rights
The right of way may take the form of an easement.
Easements grant one property owner the right to use a part of another owner’s land for a specific purpose, like access. If the driveway is shared, there’s likely an easement benefiting both parties, meaning each property owner has the legal right to pass over the other’s part of the driveway.

If an easement exists, neither party can block or obstruct the other’s access.
It’s crucial to understand that an easement doesn't grant ownership, but rather a right to use.

3. Mutual Use and Responsibilities
With shared driveways, mutual cooperation is often expected.
Each party must respect the other’s right to use the drive. You and your neighbour likely have a shared obligation to maintain the driveway, keep it clear of obstructions, and use it in a way that does not interfere with the other party’s right of access.
The exact terms might be clarified in the property deeds (Title Register or Title Plan) or as part of any easement agreement; which can be found in a Deed of Grant of Easement.

4. Boundary or Access Disputes
If a fence or obstruction is proposed or in place, it could create issues related to access rights. For example:

  • If either party erects a fence that impedes the right of way, it could lead to a boundary or access dispute.
  • Both parties must ensure that any structures (such as a fence) do not block the shared right of way. If the fence affects your ability to access your part of the driveway, or if the neighbour is blocking access, this may breach the right of way agreement or easement.

5. Resolving Right of Way Issues
If the right of way is being challenged or infringed upon, here are steps to take:

Communication:
Speak to the neighbour to clarify each party’s understanding of the shared right of way. Often, a very simple discussion can resolve a whole heap of misunderstandings.

Legal Advice:
If the situation escalates or if the neighbour continues to block or dispute the right of way, you may need to seek legal advice. A property solicitor with experience in easements and rights of way can offer specific guidance.

Mediation:
If direct communication fails, mediation is another route. A neutral mediator can help both parties come to an agreement without resorting to court action.

6. Changing the Right of Way
If you want to modify the use of the shared drive (e.g., by erecting a fence or changing the boundary), both parties must agree.

Rights of way, especially if formalised through easements or written in the title deeds (Title Register and/or Deed of Grant of Easement), cannot be changed unilaterally without the other party's consent.

This may be a lot to take in but in short:

  • Check the title deeds (Title Register & Title Plan) and easements (Deed of Grant of Easement) for specific details on the right of way and responsibilities.
  • Both parties must respect the mutual right to use the driveway, and neither can block or obstruct access.
  • If disputes arise, communicate clearly, seek legal advice, and consider mediation if needed.

If the right of way is clearly established in the deeds or through an easement, it should protect your access, and you may have legal recourse if the other party violates these rights.

Hope this makes sense 😊

Please let us know how you get on.

Get information about property and land

How to search for information about property and land in England and Wales - find out who owns it, how much was paid for it, how to get a scanned copy of the deeds and how to check the property boundaries

https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds

Vessys · 04/11/2024 06:40

Honestly, you are amazing. Thank you. I will look deeply into title of deeds. And I will let you know. Everything is clear 🤗

OP posts:
Rollercoaster1920 · 04/11/2024 09:00

Apologies for my garbled post before, a terrible mixture of my misreading, and predictive text! The other responses you've had are excellent advice.

Just to add that if you can legally erect a fence on your boundary, be aware that the last section near the public highway is limited to 1 metre high unless you get planning permission. I went with 6 foot fencing then a large hedging plant for the last section to avoid that, but screen off my neighbour.

Mum247PlanningConsultantByDay · 04/11/2024 12:16

Rollercoaster1920 · 04/11/2024 09:00

Apologies for my garbled post before, a terrible mixture of my misreading, and predictive text! The other responses you've had are excellent advice.

Just to add that if you can legally erect a fence on your boundary, be aware that the last section near the public highway is limited to 1 metre high unless you get planning permission. I went with 6 foot fencing then a large hedging plant for the last section to avoid that, but screen off my neighbour.

This is a brilliant way to erect a boundary and give you some privacy!

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