Panicking!

[CutiePatooties]

Apologies to those of you who have seen me on here a couple of times before, speaking about the same thing!

I just have a final question and wondering if anyone knows the answer? (Perhaps a solicitor is on here, or someone who has been through the same thing).

I sent my defence in, but it was terrible. I was highly emotional and didn’t say any of the facts I needed to say really. I also didn’t send any of my evidence across.

I’m now in a better frame of mind (I have BPD, so struggle to think clearly enough for things like this when under pressure or stress) but today I have clarity. I’ve written a far better defence, sticking to the facts and I’ve sighted where I will intend to use evidence. I’ve printed off my evidence, labelled them and highlighted parts to help the Judge when looking through it all.

Have I wasted my time? Will the judge tell me I should have submitted my evidence before now and will they not let me submit a different defence on the day?

I feel like an absolute idiot, but I’ve not been in the right frame of mind at all. Think I’m only seeing clearly as I’m forced to - the hearing is on Monday.

It really depends on what the matter is, but typically the other side has to have had a chance to review all evidence so you cannot just submit on the day.

@Mrsttcno1 thank you, I thought that would be the case.

Is there any point in us attending court then? I’m now wondering if you even have to attend.

Without more info on the case I can’t say. It can be an additional charge for failing to turn up to court- what is this over?

@Mrsttcno1 okay, thank you for your reply - it is much appreciated.

Our LL issued us with a S21, no fault eviction to leave her property on 1st July. We have tried finding alternative accommodation but have not secured tenure anywhere else. She is claiming for her property back within 14 days, for all her legal costs to be covered by us (they sent us two separate court bundles and fees, even though we both live at the same property, are joint tenants and have the hearing on the same date at the same time). She is also claiming for our full deposit.

I admit I allowed the pressure and stress to get to me and I submitted a rushed defence that wasn’t particularly helpful, factual and was a tad emotional. I’ve now written a factual defence, sighting evidence of us trying to secure alternative tenure, failing to do so, our instructions from the council to stay past the date stated and to legally await being evicted from the courts, us paying rent in full on time each month, us maintaining the property well, my diagnosis, advice from shelter, etc.

I could just kick myself for not sending all of this weeks ago. I’m wondering if we have to attend as I have suffered with panic attacks in the past and this has all felt too much for me. We have two small children and have honestly tried our best to get out on time, but have not been successful. We receive benefit, have no money in savings or anything as a means to pay her all she wants and as we have no evidence or strong defence it seems she will get our last bit of money and we’ll end up on a payment plan to pay her court costs. I’d rather not attend if we have to do these things, then that is how it is and I’d rather not put myself through any more unnecessary stress if we cannot change the outcome regardless.

Oh I’m sorry OP, I just saw your last thread and had a look through. I would still turn up to the court date if I was you, you’ve provided a defence and it may not be as bad as you think, but if you fail to turn up then it may be you just hand it to her anyway.

@Mrsttcno1 but will a judge listen to a defence that has no evidence? The annoying thing is, I have loads of evidence but didn’t submit anything.

If the hearing is taking place soon, submit your new defence now as an amended defence. Then turn up to the hearing, that's important so you can be be questioned in person

OP has said the hearing is on Monday so the defence will have already been served to the other party, so OP would need to seek the permission of the court/other party to submit an amended defence. There isn’t time to do that before Monday.

The judge will look at all the statements which have been provided, what you submitted may not be perfect but it may not be as bad as you think it is.

Is this court date the possession hearing?

@Mrsttcno1 could I take my new defence with me as ‘notes I can say on the day’ ? Will the judge hear any further comments on the day?

Is the court for a possession hearing?

@Mrsttcno1 yes, it’s a possession hearing.

I know we can ask for an extension but I didn’t say this in my original defence but have added this now. I also argued the same argument about legal costs and the deposit, but now worded it better and have evidence to go alongside this.

I know deep down that the judge will not look at any evidence we have, so no point in bringing it. But will they hear any more comments on the matter and maybe I can read my new defence out clearly?

Ah I see.

The thing is with providing a defence against a possession claim you have to really have specific points, so examples of these would be if the notice to court was invalid, if the landlord hasn’t complied with statutory requirements when issuing the s21, if there were issues with the property i.e. repairs. So the fact you have been looking for other properties to move into and failed to find one isn’t really a defence against the possession claim. It’s showing that you have tried to move out, but that doesn’t actually mean that the landlord has acted or done anything wrong and so it’s not really a defence. Does that make sense?

So to defend a possession claim you need to convince the judge that the landlord’s grounds have NOT been proven. If the landlord has given valid notice to court, complied with the regs etc, then the fact you’ve looked for somewhere to move into doesn’t disprove any of those things.

@Mrsttcno1 ah yes, that makes perfect sense. The LL has done everything to the letter, so no defence there as such. All my evidence was to show that we did not intend on letting it get to the court stage and therefore did our best not to impose fees on the claimant. That we followed a legal process as instructed by the council and Shelter, so we feel the court fees should be split by all parties. Also proof we’ve been good tenants so the LL should not have access to the full ‘protected’ deposit.

Yeah I see, so all of those things are relevant to you of course in as much as you’re doing what you have been told, but unfortunately if your landlord has followed the process correctly then it is almost irrelevant to the hearing really because the landlord is entitled to the possession order.

It’s a rubbish system as the council does tell you this is what you have to do, and I think they almost rely on a landlord tripping up on something, but where the landlord hasn’t then it’s an easy decision for the court to grant the possession order unfortunately.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the deposit, if it is protected then she cannot just keep it unless for specified reasons. The only issue may be (as long as no damage etc) is you staying past your eviction date costing her money? If she can prove a financial loss for this then she may have a claim on deposit but again it would be a specific amount she can’t just claim all of it if she hasn’t lost that amount.

@Mrsttcno1 oh, so we’d probably have to pay her legal fees despite being told we had to legally follow this process?

Do you know why we were sent duplicate claims even though we’re joint tenants? Surely this is not a reasonable cost.

And with regards to this: “That we followed a legal process as instructed by the council and Shelter, so we feel the court fees should be split by all parties”

Unfortunately if the court does make a possession order then the court usually will make a cost order to make you pay all or some of the landlord’s court costs.

@Mrsttcno1 thank you so much for all of your helpful advice. It feels better knowing we didn’t really have a defence, as I thought we had a chance to not have to pay everything she’s asking for and that I had blown our chance, but I can live better knowing we probably didn’t have a chance in the first place.

I still don’t understand being issued two separate court bundles and having to pay £460 each. Someone I know who is a single mum, paid £330 court costs and we’re paying £460 each. Just doesn’t seem right to me.

It’s because as joint tenants you are both jointly and severally liable for all obligations owed under the tenancy.

@Mrsttcno1 thank you!

I’ve gone from feeling it’s my fault that we’ll be paying our last pennies to her, to now feeling it would have always gone this way, with or without a defence.

It’s made me feel a hell of a lot better. Thank you for your time - I really do appreciate it.

Honestly OP I really feel for you because this is one area where the system does not work. Shelter did actively campaign against this advice from councils awhile ago because the council advice to stay past the date is actually not in accordance with the statutory guidance. Because the reality is if a landlord has done everything correctly and followed all processes properly then the possession order will be granted and the tenants then incur the court fees. The statutory guidance actually says that local authorities shouldn’t consider it reasonable to ask tenants to stay until they are basically kicked out, but still most councils give this advice (mine does!) and say otherwise you are making yourself homeless and don’t qualify for their help.

It’s a system that fucks everybody over really, it hurts landlord’s who have done everything correctly and want their property back, and it hurts tenants who have done everything correctly and still end up paying court costs before the council will step up and help them. It really is rubbish and I’m sorry you’re going through this x

@Mrsttcno1 thank you. It is rubbish for everyone involved at first, but seems to only help the landlord in the end, which (probably because I’m an emotional wreck at the moment) just doesn’t seem fair.

The landlord has had to wait a few more months to get her property ‘back,’ in which time we’ve maintained her property well, paid her £1400 a month, will be paying all her court fees to cover getting us out and she may even get our deposit. The only thing I can see that is a disadvantage to her, is having to go through the process itself and having to wait a few months longer to get it back.

However, we’ve got to pay storage fees and lug all our things out to storage, we’ve got to find money for all legal fees to cover this, we’ll probably give her at least some of our deposit, we’ll be put in temporary housing which could be a room in a BnB and we’ll end up in a new home with no carpets and no money to get any carpets as our deposit will be in her pocket.

I know it’s not her fault and I know she did everything correctly and is entitled to her property back and shouldn’t have to go through this process at all. I totally get it. I’m just saying at the end of it all, the tenants seem to be severely disadvantaged while the landlord gets it all.

please don’t come after me people, I’m in a bad way and just venting. Our circumstances are neither her fault nor concern and I do get it! If the council just helped us before the intended leave date, we’d be fine. I’m just describing how shit it is for us (in my mind) over and above how shit it is for the landlord. I could be skewed in my view as obviously I’m speaking from the viewpoint of a tenant. But I cried last night about how you hear of people being issued a s21, who then don’t pay rent, build up arrears, destroy the property, or sit around waiting for a council house. We’re none of these things! We’ve actively tried to seek alternative accommodation, have paid rent on time in full each month, have maintained the property to a high standard and have no money at all - on benefit, no savings, I’m disabled so struggle to work full time. I just feel like no matter how good or decent we’ve tried to be, we’ve just ended up being shat on from a great height. I think asking for our full deposit is the thing that hurt the most, as obviously she would want us to pay her legal fees but the deposit as well? Another £1557 that could really help us as a family. It stung more to know she has an estate worth £700,000 net. Again, her circumstances aren’t our concern I know that. Just saying it feels like crap. That’s all.

Sorry for the rant, for being emotional and for knowing I sound like a dick right now. I get it. I just have no one IRL to talk to really. I feel ashamed and embarrassed and hurt. Never thought my life would end up this way.

I know it is an awful situation honestly, you have my sympathy, the system fails everybody this way and it shouldn’t be like this. I hope you manage to get something through the council quickly. I saw your last post on the other thread this morning and I have to say I really wouldn’t recommend doing that, it does sound dodgy as I know you mentioned yourself. Good luck x

I think judges tend to be more lenient/understanding of people representing themselves so you may have more wiggle room than you think. Either way don’t bury your head in the sand - the judge will always look more favourably on someone who turns up than someone who doesn’t.

I posted on your last thread.

She may have asked for 14 days, but the judge can agree up to 42 days; you could advise you’re actively looking for a new property (if you still are) and just need a little extra time.

Even if 14 days is granted, they then have to appoint a bailiff (which they can’t do until the 14 days is up, in case you have vacated in those 14 days) AND the bailiff needs to then give you 14 days notice of the eviction date. So in reality you have at least 28 days from Monday, likely more (for me, from order date to eviction date was just over 5 weeks).

As long as all her paperwork is in order, the order will be granted. I’m really unsure about costs though - I couldn’t claim my legal fees, only the locksmith charge on eviction date. Although the tenant got no deposit back in the end because of the state the property was left in.

She cannot withhold the deposit because it’s protected (which you said it is previously) - and the managing agent should give you a full report of the property, and any costs, which you can always dispute.